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Forums - Politics - Bernie Sanders confuses me

MikeRox said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:

Yep. I recently read about American students who fled America for Germany because of their student loans. 

 

Was it just to avoid paying them? My wife's student loans eat over a quarter of our joint income! She lives in the UK with me now. But her parents are co signers so if she does paying, they'd go after her parents instead, which I don't think would go down well.

 

I think if they made tuition totally free, they'd also have to look at helping existing graduates with their repayments. Finding something in the middle lowering graduate repayments to sensible amounts (and the same for future students) would be a better place and easy to start making college more affordable.

I dont think they had co signers. It didn't  sound like they wouldn't have left their parents with the bill. They did sound like they wanted to avoid the US as much as possible. I don't even think they cared if they came back. Things were just as good in Germany, if not better for them.

Im rather confused by this current crop of politicians running. No one seems to strike my fancy and Rand Paul is out of the equation. The only people who will help out the situation will be anti-establishment politicians and the only one left seems to be Bernie. 



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fatslob-:O said:

If there's no proof that "many" are getting away with it then that's the end of it ... 

There's also a big difference between "money laundering" and "tax avoidance". "Tax evasion" is the equivalent to money laundering but most businesses do the latter by sending their profits to "tax shelters" and that is perfectly legal in theory ... 

Sounds exactly like what a freeloader would say ... 

If they truly thought that why wouldn't businesses just pay those high wage jobs minimum wages instead ?

Of their total income! Greece has experienced GDP growth from 1994 to 2007 for consecutively 13 years so the excuse of tax avoidance doesn't apply ...

Their taxation system is the LAST thing I would accuse. There's many other issues that takes precedence over that such as government spending budgets, continous trade deficits, and misrepresentation of their debt ...

Maybe Greece ought to be paying back that debt instead of keeping up their living standards ... 

Despite increasing their tax to GDP ratio, Greece ended up being an unmitigated mess ... 

The's plenty of proof right in front of you, do you know how financial cases are handled for a start? Originally anyone involve was tried like any other criminal now days the crime is passed on as a company effort which at worse ends in a fine that has no significant impact on the company. This change in the law made around a decade ago essentially aloows them to bend and break rules with out people going to jail, why do you think banks were involve in all kinds of dodgy activties for the past 15 years, no one is going to jail even if they're caught. HSBC getting fine means someone didn't go to jail.

The second part of your post makes little sense at all in what you're trying to say and has offered no counter argument either, companies pay according to the role and not the person, unions and such exist for when people feel they're not getting what the role should get, this happened with voice actors a while back. Many businesses also do pay low for highly skilled jobs in fact high wage jobs are very limited.

Greece's growth was from borrowed money you are aware that Greece utilized financial products to cover up the true amounts they were borrowing and that bankers kept these records hidden? The failure of collecting taxes exposed flaws in the economic structure as the treasury became redudant and the country became reliant on borrowing, they had a high standard of living which was beyond their means which is why when the recession hit their debt shot up and the trade deficit became a bigger problem when they entered the Euro (which itself had flaws) because of this mismanagement, they also had a young retirement age as well with generous pensions and welfare so that 18% you're touting is smoke and mirrors as that income was adding to debt, the tax problems in Greece are well known as it's part of the corruption problem they have as often the taxes end up in someone else's bank account and not the treasury.



Wyrdness said:

The's plenty of proof right in front of you, do you know how financial cases are handled for a start? Originally anyone involve was tried like any other criminal now days the crime is passed on as a company effort which at worse ends in a fine that has no significant impact on the company. This change in the law made around a decade ago essentially aloows them to bend and break rules with out people going to jail, why do you think banks were involve in all kinds of dodgy activties for the past 15 years, no one is going to jail even if they're caught. HSBC getting fine means someone didn't go to jail.

Then why aren't authorities finding proof for massive money laundering ? Estimates put money laundering at 5% on a global scale at best ...

Why even have this discussion of money laundering if tax shelter's are legal as that was my original point ?

Wyrdness said:

The second part of your post makes little sense at all in what you're trying to say and has offered no counter argument either, companies pay according to the role and not the person, unions and such exist for when people feel they're not getting what the role should get, this happened with voice actors a while back. Many businesses also do pay low for highly skilled jobs in fact high wage jobs are very limited.

Companies do pay according to person. If your a senior employee you get paid more. If your education is related to high wage jobs you will get paid more.

Tne majority of the CEOs are hired INTERNALLY or in otherwords those employees rise up in ranks and in turn get paid more ...

#Itsthatsimple ...

The business world is largely meritocratic no matter what you say and those high wage jobs are in high demand so why not let citizens optimize their own wages by getting degrees or working experience that are worth a damn ? 

Wyrdness said:

Greece's growth was from borrowed money you are aware that Greece utilized financial products to cover up the true amounts they were borrowing and that bankers kept these records hidden? The failure of collecting taxes exposed flaws in the economic structure as the treasury became redudant and the country became reliant on borrowing, they had a high standard of living which was beyond their means which is why when the recession hit their debt shot up and the trade deficit became a bigger problem when they entered the Euro (which itself had flaws) because of this mismanagement, they also had a young retirement age as well with generous pensions and welfare so that 18% you're touting is smoke and mirrors as that income was adding to debt, the tax problems in Greece are well known as it's part of the corruption problem they have as often the taxes end up in someone else's bank account and not the treasury.

Failure of collecting taxes ? The estimated GDP of Greece's shadow economy is 25% of it's own economy from 2002 to 2013 ? So if we tax 25% of that too Greece would get about 6% more in tax revenues on average ? 

No matter how you slice it even if the government was 100% successful in getting all those uncollected taxes their still bad with budgeting ...



fatslob-:O said:

Then why aren't authorities finding proof for massive money laundering ? Estimates put money laundering at 5% on a global scale at best ...

Why even have this discussion of money laundering if tax shelter's are legal as that was my original point ?

Companies do pay according to person. If your a senior employee you get paid more. If your education is related to high wage jobs you will get paid more.

Tne majority of the CEOs are hired INTERNALLY or in otherwords those employees rise up in ranks and in turn get paid more ...

#Itsthatsimple ...

The business world is largely meritocratic no matter what you say and those high wage jobs are in high demand so why not let citizens optimize their own wages by getting degrees or working experience that are worth a damn ? 

Failure of collecting taxes ? The estimated GDP of Greece's shadow economy is 25% of it's own economy from 2002 to 2013 ? So if we tax 25% of that too Greece would get about 6% more in tax revenues on average ? 

No matter how you slice it even if the government was 100% successful in getting all those uncollected taxes their still bad with budgeting ...

They already have found evidence that's what all the fines were about the investigation found them guilty.

Naive, the are many highly educated people who go to university only to end up stacking shelves, in retail and serving food in catering, most CEOs are actually part of a circle of aquaintainces and closely connected to those at the top. It's not what you know it's who you know, not everyone is promoted to senior in fact few people are despite being just as qualified otherwise businesses would have just as many of more senior management than staff but the company can't afford that. Those high wage jobs are in demand because they're limited.

What do you mean if we tax 25%? Go to any financial expert and try telling them Greece was 100% successful in collecting taxes you'd be laugh out as it's common knowledge go read up on why the countries lending Greece money were in the prolong debates with Greece, one of the central issues was the Greek government collecting money internally to pay them back as lenders didn't have confidence in them, they're nowhere near successful in doing so that's why Greece is classed as a peripheral country, you've essentially made up something with the if we do this and that to declare something else that is untrue.

Read up on the Greek Tax problem, in 2009 general evasion was estimated to be around 20 billion Euros while evasion by self employed was around 28 billion Euros, the latter is 31% of the budget deficit they had by itself, in other words that's a third of the excess money leaving the country to pay for expenses and with the former that's around 50% of the deficit for that year and that's only the start with a further 37 billion owed and 20 Billion kept in Swiss accounts, all of this is before we even get to off shore companies. Tax Evasion in 2012 was around 24% of the GDP.



Sanders is the way to go. More taxes for the billionairs would pay the universal health care, the minimum wage... I find him fascinating because he's very popular even if he declares himself a socialist, which some time ago would be unthinkable in USA.



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Volterra_90 said:
Sanders is the way to go. More taxes for the billionairs would pay the universal health care, the minimum wage... I find him fascinating because he's very popular even if he declares himself a socialist, which some time ago would be unthinkable in USA.

I will say this again...

Why is he increasing taxes on the middle class?



the-pi-guy said:
Jimbo1337 said:

I will say this again...

Why is he increasing taxes on the middle class?

So he can give them healthcare.

Indeed, their income after taxes might be lower but their spending power overall wil increase because they save more money on healthcare. I never really understood this obsession by a lot of Americans about taxes and tax rates. Here every time a new government budget is announced most media outlet's only tell you in wich area's there are going to be cuts or budget increases, and they calculate what will happen to the spending power of each class of society. Because in the end that's what matters.



Wyrdness said:

Naive, the are many highly educated people who go to university only to end up stacking shelves, in retail and serving food in catering, most CEOs are actually part of a circle of aquaintainces and closely connected to those at the top. It's not what you know it's who you know, not everyone is promoted to senior in fact few people are despite being just as qualified otherwise businesses would have just as many of more senior management than staff but the company can't afford that. Those high wage jobs are in demand because they're limited.

Who exactly are those highly educated people and since when did getting a college degree guarantee you a job ? Your pay and employment at the start is largely determined by what kind of degree you hold and on average college graduates still are better off than high school graduates ...

Connections are only going to get you so far. Just because a janitor knows a CEO personally doesn't mean that he will be getting a managing position anytime soon. In fact the majority of the new hires are WITHOUT direct connections according to linkedin. Senior positions are simply not available to EVERY type of jobs like janitors, cachiers, and etc for the vast majority of the time. To move into senior positions you must change your career towards management if you want to rise up in ranks and most employees simply have no desire for such ... 

The high wage jobs are in demand because there are very few out there with that skill set and those who can acquire that skill set. It's all determined by supply and demand ... 

Wyrdness said:

What do you mean if we tax 25%? Go to any financial expert and try telling them Greece was 100% successful in collecting taxes you'd be laugh out as it's common knowledge go read up on why the countries lending Greece money were in the prolong debates with Greece, one of the central issues was the Greek government collecting money internally to pay them back as lenders didn't have confidence in them, they're nowhere near successful in doing so that's why Greece is classed as a peripheral country, you've essentially made up something with the if we do this and that to declare something else that is untrue.

Read up on the Greek Tax problem, in 2009 general evasion was estimated to be around 20 billion Euros while evasion by self employed was around 28 billion Euros, the latter is 31% of the budget deficit they had by itself, in other words that's a third of the excess money leaving the country to pay for expenses and with the former that's around 50% of the deficit for that year and that's only the start with a further 37 billion owed and 20 Billion kept in Swiss accounts, all of this is before we even get to off shore companies. Tax Evasion in 2012 was around 24% of the GDP.

Since there's a large amount of self-employed Greeks who won't make their earnings be known who's fault is it exactly ? 

For Greek citizens to talk up so much about wanting these social programs a lot of them don't like paying for them apparently ... (They can't have it both ways.)

The issue isn't the 1% in Greece's case, it's the 30% ... 



the-pi-guy said:
Jimbo1337 said:

I will say this again...

Why is he increasing taxes on the middle class?

So he can give them healthcare.

So does that mean he is going to increase taxes on the poor to give them healthcare as well?

Anybody with a brain the size of a plant could come up with a better healthcare plan to save the American people money without increasing taxes.  That's how bad Obamacare truly is and it will only get worse.



fatslob-:O said:

Who exactly are those highly educated people and since when did getting a college degree guarantee you a job ? Your pay and employment at the start is largely determined by what kind of degree you hold and on average college graduates still are better off than high school graduates ...

Connections are only going to get you so far. Just because a janitor knows a CEO personally doesn't mean that he will be getting a managing position anytime soon. In fact the majority of the new hires are WITHOUT direct connections according to linkedin. Senior positions are simply not available to EVERY type of jobs like janitors, cachiers, and etc for the vast majority of the time. To move into senior positions you must change your career towards management if you want to rise up in ranks and most employees simply have no desire for such ... 

The high wage jobs are in demand because there are very few out there with that skill set and those who can acquire that skill set. It's all determined by supply and demand ... 

Since there's a large amount of self-employed Greeks who won't make their earnings be known who's fault is it exactly ? 

For Greek citizens to talk up so much about wanting these social programs a lot of them don't like paying for them apparently ... (They can't have it both ways.)

The issue isn't the 1% in Greece's case, it's the 30% ... 

Connections can get you further easier and faster then education can, you brought up if someone is educated to the level required you'll get paid what you're worth but in the majority of cases that's not the case, even for those who do managerial courses and such. College graduates ending up in retail as opposed to high school graduate ending up in KFC isn't saying much, for instance I know people who went to university only to end up stacking shelves while someone who left at high school is a manager at an engineering company that his dad is a higher up of.

It's the Government's fault for simply never taking the situation seriously, the avoidance of paying into the system was initially a rebellion against the Ottoman Empire and continued when they broke free. That's over century maybe even far longer, over that period of time if such large sums of income is being syphoned off and money is being borrowed to make up the deficit the will come a time when it hits an unmoveable object. This is why western countries give tax organizations such high power.