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Forums - Gaming - Problems with Huge AAA Gaming Projects - Former Ubisoft Dev Speaks

ReimTime said:
Intrinsic said:
Naughty dog.

Just shows there is a right and wrong way to do anything

Naughty Dog is a good example, but I think a better comparison would be Rockstar. They create huge big vbudget games across multiple studios (correct me if I'm wrong) and the only problem with their games seem to be bugs or glitches. Perhaps they communicate better?

Naughty Dog has great leadership and stays within one building. I don't think they outsource anything except for remasters



I'd also say the time. It's years before the next GTA pops out. They can work on the script for months, if not a year. And then for a year, pre produce up to where the birds shit, in the city map. VS what? In 6 months. Half the game has to be built, for AC.

gabzjmm23 said:
agree on the tight deadline. it is more of a time issue regardless if there are onshore/offshore work. it is hard to beat the timeline and most of the developers are working extra time to finish their work and hand it off to the next shift person. it would be better to stretch it out a bit - 2-3 years apart. if the game is really great and less glitchy/buggy. i'm sure the gamers would buy the next game. even now, AC series are still selling well anyway. :D

Kojima has a great vision but i think he overbudgeted which Konami management was pissed off, i think. that is the problem when you gave control on the budget to certain people who just extended the budget without limits. Besides SE, which Japanese studio really went into western type of AAA game budget?

Does that really matter? At the end of the day. The MGS games have sold and they never lost money. So these companies shouldn't be bitching in the first place. Konami was acting like Dudley, in Harry Potter. Only bitch, if your game maker hasn't made a hit series yet.



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Farsala said:
Intrinsic said:
Naughty dog.

Just shows there is a right and wrong way to do anything

 

A lot of Naughty Dog's top dogs left. The reason could be a plenty but some might have left for this same reason. They felt their vision was not being respected and have gone to other things.

 

Could just be the people being offered better pay because of how well they've done. I imagine Sony can't pay as well as the other studios.



So he's basically saying stick to playing games instead of making them!



JEMC said:
DonFerrari said:
JEMC said:

But the tight timeline is what causes some of those communications problems. The yearly releases force that several studios have to work together to get the game done in time, and that causes the communication problems.

If the game was bi-annual, the number of studios involved in the development could be lowered, maybe to only Montreal and Quebec, and that would simplify the communications while also speed up other tasks like making the right choices and the set up of priorities.

Perhaps, but without doing root cause investigation we can't assume anything... and in Lean we wouldn't look on how to stretch a process to make it take 3x more, but how to make it happen without problems in the time already available or how to reduce time... so we could either separate the teams in 3 to give each 3 years in alternation or see how to improve comunication... Only increasing time would make the budget 3x higher with no economical gain, who would apply it?

That would only be true if the same teams that now make an AC game in 1 year were involved in making it in 3 years, which wouldn't happen. Even more, those teams that now are busy working on AC games could actually work on other franchises or even start new IPs that would help Ubisoft as they could have 3-4 strong IPs that could be launched one each year, giving them a steady income while also ensuring a certain quality in their products.

And yes, in an ideal world Ubisoft would find a way to solve all their problems and keep launching one AC game each year while maintainung the quality, but we don't live in such world. So their option is to either put more people or teams into the yearly development of the game and prey that the problems won't get bigger/worse, or pause the whole thing to evaluate which are the problems and where do they come from, then solve it and start to make game again. There is of course a third option, which is to give the project extra time in order to identify and solve the problems as they appear, trying to get rid of all the problems and, once done, increase the production rate again.

Now honestly, I think that the best thing that Ubi could do is give AC a rest. They have burned too many historical settings in a very short time that could have been used more extensively.

How reducing the team to 1/3 and extending the time by 3 times would solve the time constraints if they will have the same manpower in the end? Or you suggest to have everyone in the same location to streamline the control? Have you though that they hire other teams because of expertise not manpower for common tasks? This is why I said you can't give a solution without really knowing the problem. If it was as simple as just guessing they would have solved it already. And they won't give it a rest if it keep profiting.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

JEMC said:
ReimTime said:
JEMC said:

I agree with you that this is a consequence of the development of big Triple-A games. But this may be worse in Ubisoft because they make one of those every single year. They are always in a hurry, and that creates problems that studios like Rockstar with GTA or Activision with CoD (they give 3 years to each studio to make one game) simply don't have.

 

Another reason why that rumor of them ditching the annual release and revamping the franchise was such great news for me. But will it really make a difference if the communication continues to suck?

Of course it will.

One of the consecuences of giving them more time would be that they can use less studios to make the game. We could say, so to speak, that what two studios make in one year, one studio can make it in two years. And that solves (or at least reduces) several problems like the comunication or the decision making problems.

 

DonFerrari said:

And do you think Ubi Montreal is a single team? Nope. They probably have like 10 teams and they alternate in the releases. Even with huge team a 1 year timeschedule for those type of games is crazy, it isn't sport game with only rooster changes.

I doubt they alternate between releases. The Assassin's Creed team (or teams in Montreal) work in AC games and the Far Cry team work on FC games. Mixing them would cause extra problems that Ubisoft can't afford in an annual franchise.

As for your second part, that's exactly why they use several studios and what causes some of their problems and ultimately make the games end up being like they do: uninspired and "more of the same".

 

From what I remember, Ubi Montreal made most of the main games (like Unity) while Ubi Sofia made Rogue (allowing them to release in the same year), and it sounds like Ubi Quebec headed Syndicate.

Since all 3 games were average it doesn't really matter anyway



#1 Amb-ass-ador

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DonFerrari said:
JEMC said:
DonFerrari said:

Perhaps, but without doing root cause investigation we can't assume anything... and in Lean we wouldn't look on how to stretch a process to make it take 3x more, but how to make it happen without problems in the time already available or how to reduce time... so we could either separate the teams in 3 to give each 3 years in alternation or see how to improve comunication... Only increasing time would make the budget 3x higher with no economical gain, who would apply it?

That would only be true if the same teams that now make an AC game in 1 year were involved in making it in 3 years, which wouldn't happen. Even more, those teams that now are busy working on AC games could actually work on other franchises or even start new IPs that would help Ubisoft as they could have 3-4 strong IPs that could be launched one each year, giving them a steady income while also ensuring a certain quality in their products.

And yes, in an ideal world Ubisoft would find a way to solve all their problems and keep launching one AC game each year while maintainung the quality, but we don't live in such world. So their option is to either put more people or teams into the yearly development of the game and prey that the problems won't get bigger/worse, or pause the whole thing to evaluate which are the problems and where do they come from, then solve it and start to make game again. There is of course a third option, which is to give the project extra time in order to identify and solve the problems as they appear, trying to get rid of all the problems and, once done, increase the production rate again.

Now honestly, I think that the best thing that Ubi could do is give AC a rest. They have burned too many historical settings in a very short time that could have been used more extensively.

How reducing the team to 1/3 and extending the time by 3 times would solve the time constraints if they will have the same manpower in the end? Or you suggest to have everyone in the same location to streamline the control? Have you though that they hire other teams because of expertise not manpower for common tasks? This is why I said you can't give a solution without really knowing the problem. If it was as simple as just guessing they would have solved it already. And they won't give it a rest if it keep profiting.

Reducing the team and adding more time would could speed up the game development as some of the troubles described in the OP would get inmensly reduced, like the time used to make decisions and specially the communication one (it's a lot easier to discuss what's going on when it's only one or two studios, even more when they are in the same country and/or timezone).

And yes, of course they could ask the help of other studios for expertise, but when that happens game after game it's proof of how badly organized is the studio in charge. After so many AC games, Montreal should have the necessary talent to take care of most if not all the important aspects. C'mon, that studio also works on Far Cry, Splinter Cell, Rainbow Six and now WatchDogs. They are the studio the others should ask for help, not the other way around.



Please excuse my bad English.

Currently gaming on a PC with an i5-4670k@stock (for now), 16Gb RAM 1600 MHz and a GTX 1070

Steam / Live / NNID : jonxiquet    Add me if you want, but I'm a single player gamer.

JEMC said:
DonFerrari said:
JEMC said:

That would only be true if the same teams that now make an AC game in 1 year were involved in making it in 3 years, which wouldn't happen. Even more, those teams that now are busy working on AC games could actually work on other franchises or even start new IPs that would help Ubisoft as they could have 3-4 strong IPs that could be launched one each year, giving them a steady income while also ensuring a certain quality in their products.

And yes, in an ideal world Ubisoft would find a way to solve all their problems and keep launching one AC game each year while maintainung the quality, but we don't live in such world. So their option is to either put more people or teams into the yearly development of the game and prey that the problems won't get bigger/worse, or pause the whole thing to evaluate which are the problems and where do they come from, then solve it and start to make game again. There is of course a third option, which is to give the project extra time in order to identify and solve the problems as they appear, trying to get rid of all the problems and, once done, increase the production rate again.

Now honestly, I think that the best thing that Ubi could do is give AC a rest. They have burned too many historical settings in a very short time that could have been used more extensively.

How reducing the team to 1/3 and extending the time by 3 times would solve the time constraints if they will have the same manpower in the end? Or you suggest to have everyone in the same location to streamline the control? Have you though that they hire other teams because of expertise not manpower for common tasks? This is why I said you can't give a solution without really knowing the problem. If it was as simple as just guessing they would have solved it already. And they won't give it a rest if it keep profiting.

Reducing the team and adding more time would could speed up the game development as some of the troubles described in the OP would get inmensly reduced, like the time used to make decisions and specially the communication one (it's a lot easier to discuss what's going on when it's only one or two studios, even more when they are in the same country and/or timezone).

And yes, of course they could ask the help of other studios for expertise, but when that happens game after game it's proof of how badly organized is the studio in charge. After so many AC games, Montreal should have the necessary talent to take care of most if not all the important aspects. C'mon, that studio also works on Far Cry, Splinter Cell, Rainbow Six and now WatchDogs. They are the studio the others should ask for help, not the other way around.

If you reduce the resources by the same amount you enlarge time how can you say it will speed up? (you even said, put all in one location). Teams with a single culture can help communication though.

And nope, Ferrari have decades of making very desirable cars but still count on Pininfarina expertise. You don't need to do everything in house.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

DonFerrari said:
JEMC said:
DonFerrari said:

How reducing the team to 1/3 and extending the time by 3 times would solve the time constraints if they will have the same manpower in the end? Or you suggest to have everyone in the same location to streamline the control? Have you though that they hire other teams because of expertise not manpower for common tasks? This is why I said you can't give a solution without really knowing the problem. If it was as simple as just guessing they would have solved it already. And they won't give it a rest if it keep profiting.

Reducing the team and adding more time would could speed up the game development as some of the troubles described in the OP would get inmensly reduced, like the time used to make decisions and specially the communication one (it's a lot easier to discuss what's going on when it's only one or two studios, even more when they are in the same country and/or timezone).

And yes, of course they could ask the help of other studios for expertise, but when that happens game after game it's proof of how badly organized is the studio in charge. After so many AC games, Montreal should have the necessary talent to take care of most if not all the important aspects. C'mon, that studio also works on Far Cry, Splinter Cell, Rainbow Six and now WatchDogs. They are the studio the others should ask for help, not the other way around.

If you reduce the resources by the same amount you enlarge time how can you say it will speed up? (you even said, put all in one location). Teams with a single culture can help communication though.

And nope, Ferrari have decades of making very desirable cars but still count on Pininfarina expertise. You don't need to do everything in house.

I've said reduce the amount of studios to obe or two, never only one. And yes, things could speed up because some of the decisions would be made earlier, wasting less time in the production of the game.

Besides, we have all worked with other people and have realized that, sometimes, sharing the same work with someone else (in this case would be two studios doing the same work) can make everything more difficult.

Also your Pininfarina example doesn't work. First because Pininfarina isn't part of Ferrari, unlike the other Ubisoft studios, but also because they don't work exclusively for Ferrari. In any case, Mahindra bought them last year, so I doubt we'll see more Ferraris designed by them .



Please excuse my bad English.

Currently gaming on a PC with an i5-4670k@stock (for now), 16Gb RAM 1600 MHz and a GTX 1070

Steam / Live / NNID : jonxiquet    Add me if you want, but I'm a single player gamer.

JEMC said:
DonFerrari said:
JEMC said:

Reducing the team and adding more time would could speed up the game development as some of the troubles described in the OP would get inmensly reduced, like the time used to make decisions and specially the communication one (it's a lot easier to discuss what's going on when it's only one or two studios, even more when they are in the same country and/or timezone).

And yes, of course they could ask the help of other studios for expertise, but when that happens game after game it's proof of how badly organized is the studio in charge. After so many AC games, Montreal should have the necessary talent to take care of most if not all the important aspects. C'mon, that studio also works on Far Cry, Splinter Cell, Rainbow Six and now WatchDogs. They are the studio the others should ask for help, not the other way around.

If you reduce the resources by the same amount you enlarge time how can you say it will speed up? (you even said, put all in one location). Teams with a single culture can help communication though.

And nope, Ferrari have decades of making very desirable cars but still count on Pininfarina expertise. You don't need to do everything in house.

I've said reduce the amount of studios to obe or two, never only one. And yes, things could speed up because some of the decisions would be made earlier, wasting less time in the production of the game.

Besides, we have all worked with other people and have realized that, sometimes, sharing the same work with someone else (in this case would be two studios doing the same work) can make everything more difficult.

Also your Pininfarina example doesn't work. First because Pininfarina isn't part of Ferrari, unlike the other Ubisoft studios, but also because they don't work exclusively for Ferrari. In any case, Mahindra bought them last year, so I doubt we'll see more Ferraris designed by them .

Having 3x more time wouldn't make the decisions EARLIER. Maybe you wanted to convey not on a time based but perhaps schedule based way.

How come my point with Pininfarina don't work if we were talking about outsorcing to other companies?



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

DonFerrari said:
JEMC said:
DonFerrari said:
JEMC said:

Reducing the team and adding more time would could speed up the game development as some of the troubles described in the OP would get inmensly reduced, like the time used to make decisions and specially the communication one (it's a lot easier to discuss what's going on when it's only one or two studios, even more when they are in the same country and/or timezone).

And yes, of course they could ask the help of other studios for expertise, but when that happens game after game it's proof of how badly organized is the studio in charge. After so many AC games, Montreal should have the necessary talent to take care of most if not all the important aspects. C'mon, that studio also works on Far Cry, Splinter Cell, Rainbow Six and now WatchDogs. They are the studio the others should ask for help, not the other way around.

If you reduce the resources by the same amount you enlarge time how can you say it will speed up? (you even said, put all in one location). Teams with a single culture can help communication though.

And nope, Ferrari have decades of making very desirable cars but still count on Pininfarina expertise. You don't need to do everything in house.

I've said reduce the amount of studios to obe or two, never only one. And yes, things could speed up because some of the decisions would be made earlier, wasting less time in the production of the game.

Besides, we have all worked with other people and have realized that, sometimes, sharing the same work with someone else (in this case would be two studios doing the same work) can make everything more difficult.

Also your Pininfarina example doesn't work. First because Pininfarina isn't part of Ferrari, unlike the other Ubisoft studios, but also because they don't work exclusively for Ferrari. In any case, Mahindra bought them last year, so I doubt we'll see more Ferraris designed by them .

Having 3x more time wouldn't make the decisions EARLIER. Maybe you wanted to convey not on a time based but perhaps schedule based way.

How come my point with Pininfarina don't work if we were talking about outsorcing to other companies?

Ok, the schedule would be set earlier.

And the reason your Pininfarina example doesn't work is in your own question: Ubisoft doesn't outsource to other, external companies, they do it all in house but in different studios.



Please excuse my bad English.

Currently gaming on a PC with an i5-4670k@stock (for now), 16Gb RAM 1600 MHz and a GTX 1070

Steam / Live / NNID : jonxiquet    Add me if you want, but I'm a single player gamer.