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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Corporate Health of Sony, Nintendo and MS

KLAMarine said:

I'm not messing with you. The fact that I bothered to do the math to support my statements will attest to that.

Eddie_Raja said:

Your math clearly showed that Sony is worth more money overall.

Eddie_Raja said:
SpokenTruth said:

I think the issue here is that you are looking at absolute values and he's looking as at ratios and percentages.

 

If that is the case, you are both correct in from those viewpoints.  The question then becomes, which viewpoint is actually a better indicator of corporate health and how well they could weather problems?

Which is why I have said several times that absolute value is more important in the case of disaster - that is one my main points.  Having the best Ratios is nice for investor meetings, but when the shit hits the fan what matters is how long can you survive hardship while you steer your company back on course.  Sony's (Too?) massive size allowed them to sell off nearly endless pieces of their business when some of their divisions were going through hard times.   If Nintendo were to be hit anywhere near as hard they would go bankrupt very quickly.

Sony has more employees than Nintendo. If we divide "armor" by employee size, we get the following:

Nintendo:

$17.4 billion / 5,000 = $3,480,000 per employee

Sony:

$22.1 billion / 130,000 = $170,000 per employee


What do you make of this? Who do you think might be able to hold onto their workforce for longer during times of crisis?

I certainly know who I'd rather work for.

You assume you have almost no knowledge on the issue but keep doing meaningless math to prove Nintendo is safier or have more armor? If you don't know what you are talking about it's better to just say you don't know.

AsGryffynn said:
DonFerrari said:
Teeqoz said:

Even the most profitable companies take up loans, because sometimes you need short term cash to cover expenses, and it makes no sense to take that cash from your main reserves. This is the same reason the country I live in (Norway) can run a surplus on its federal budget, but still takes up loans to cover costs. It's not as simple as a "They have enough money to pay it, so why don't they."

Also corporate bonds don't work like that. It's not like you can pay it whenever you want. They have due dates and set interest payments for years.

Government debt is a little more complicated... A lot of the reserve is used to manipulate the market in some way and play with exchange rates, and serve as cushion. So they can't dispose of that money and need external money. Other times like in Brazil they take money from banks with like 14% interest and lend subsized to "improve industries" and that money is lent by the same bank by 4% interest rate, and basically the bank is making 10% profit with a money it doesn't even own.

On company side, you could see on simpler term that a investiment have 25% return rate while the lent money will cost 10% on that period, so it's better to own money because it'll generate profit to cover the cost of it... That is why MS even having much more cash than Ninty still pick a lot of loans on the market... Ninty is probably too risk adverse and preffer to sit on their cash and invest very little and lend even less.

As far as I know USA always wanted to swallow the world economy and MS in 90's were already quite big. But what does that have to do with Sony problems? MS never caused much trouble to Sony besisdes maybe pushing them to bad decisions on PS3 (which I doubt, they would probably release the same HW independt of MS being or not in the market) or having to drop the price to fast and losing money (Sony usually drops HW price fast, but yes I can see MS pressure being a decisive ingredient here).



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

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DonFerrari said:
KLAMarine said:

I'm not messing with you. The fact that I bothered to do the math to support my statements will attest to that.

Eddie_Raja said:

Your math clearly showed that Sony is worth more money overall.

Eddie_Raja said:
SpokenTruth said:

I think the issue here is that you are looking at absolute values and he's looking as at ratios and percentages.

 

If that is the case, you are both correct in from those viewpoints.  The question then becomes, which viewpoint is actually a better indicator of corporate health and how well they could weather problems?

Which is why I have said several times that absolute value is more important in the case of disaster - that is one my main points.  Having the best Ratios is nice for investor meetings, but when the shit hits the fan what matters is how long can you survive hardship while you steer your company back on course.  Sony's (Too?) massive size allowed them to sell off nearly endless pieces of their business when some of their divisions were going through hard times.   If Nintendo were to be hit anywhere near as hard they would go bankrupt very quickly.

Sony has more employees than Nintendo. If we divide "armor" by employee size, we get the following:

Nintendo:

$17.4 billion / 5,000 = $3,480,000 per employee

Sony:

$22.1 billion / 130,000 = $170,000 per employee


What do you make of this? Who do you think might be able to hold onto their workforce for longer during times of crisis?

I certainly know who I'd rather work for.

You assume you have almost no knowledge on the issue but keep doing meaningless math to prove Nintendo is safier or have more armor? If you don't know what you are talking about it's better to just say you don't know.

I've said before that I'm not at all an expert and if any business majors see any faulty reasoning in my logic, I want them to correct me.

With that said, what is meaningless about my math?



KLAMarine said:
DonFerrari said:
KLAMarine said:

I'm not messing with you. The fact that I bothered to do the math to support my statements will attest to that.Sony has more employees than Nintendo. If we divide "armor" by employee size, we get the following:

Nintendo:

$17.4 billion / 5,000 = $3,480,000 per employee

Sony:

$22.1 billion / 130,000 = $170,000 per employee

What do you make of this? Who do you think might be able to hold onto their workforce for longer during times of crisis?

I certainly know who I'd rather work for.

You assume you have almost no knowledge on the issue but keep doing meaningless math to prove Nintendo is safier or have more armor? If you don't know what you are talking about it's better to just say you don't know.

I've said before that I'm not at all an expert and if any business majors see any faulty reasoning in my logic, I want them to correct me.

With that said, what is meaningless about my math?

You can answer that yourself, what meaning you expect on "assets/employee" calculation?

I would dare say that in fact having more employees would make government more prone to bail out the company making it harder for sony to bankrupt than Nintendo, even more when sony acts in a lot more fields and work in technology evolution instead of only making games.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

SpokenTruth said:
Swordmasterman said:

Sony, already had a lot of loss in the past years, and now is back up, Nintendo, cannot loss Money, other wise they would be in big trouble.

They have not yet fully recovered from those losses and it may take Sony a while to do so. 

Nintendo already did take a huge loss and they have the finances to take several more just like for for the next 20 years.

Miyamotoo said:

Do you have some links for this numbers!?

http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/sne/financials/balance-sheet
http://markets.money.cnn.com/research/quote/financials.asp?symb=SNE&dataSet=BS

Just use the symbols NTDOY for Nintendo, SNE for Sony and MSFT for Microsoft.

You think Nintendo can have 20 consecutive failed generation in both fields they have products and nothing would really happen?

And you still complain of people that think Sony is in a better situation because Playstation is in a strong position or that Nintendo is in a bad situation because 3DS underperformed and WiiU plummeted?



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

SpokenTruth said:
Swordmasterman said:

Sony, already had a lot of loss in the past years, and now is back up, Nintendo, cannot loss Money, other wise they would be in big trouble.

They have not yet fully recovered from those losses and it may take Sony a while to do so. 

 


Sony is back in the black if that was what you mean by recovered from those losses.



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SpokenTruth said:
Teeqoz said:

Sony is back in the black if that was what you mean by recovered from those losses.

No, that's not what recovering from losses means.  Let's look at a fictional company and I'll show you what I mean.


2011 - $500 million losses
2012 - $2 bilion losses
2013 - $2 billion losses
2014 - $100 million profit
2015 - $200 million profit

As you can see, this company is making profit again but has not yet recovered from the losses.  They would still be down $4.2 billion over the past 5 fiscal years.  A full recovery would bring that up to a positive overall figure. 



 

That's a pretty weird definition of recovery though. The damage of those 4 billion losses will be just as big regardless of how much money you make later. The most reasonable way to talk about recovery is if they've recovered their ability to make an (equal sized) profit as before their financial troubles, and in that sense, Sony has pretty much recovered.



SpokenTruth said:
Teeqoz said:

Sony is back in the black if that was what you mean by recovered from those losses.

No, that's not what recovering from losses means.  Let's look at a fictional company and I'll show you what I mean.


2011 - $500 million losses
2012 - $2 bilion losses
2013 - $2 billion losses
2014 - $100 million profit
2015 - $200 million profit

As you can see, this company is making profit again but has not yet recovered from the losses.  They would still be down $4.2 billion over the past 5 fiscal years.  A full recovery would bring that up to a positive overall figure. 



Does it matter though? Sony is a bigger company, has more cash and assets and is now controlling their liabilities even more through their restructuring. As long as they're back to profiting, Sony can stand on its own because they could.

Nintendo on the other hand can't because their audience is dwindling because of smartphones.



SpokenTruth said:
DonFerrari said:
SpokenTruth said:
Swordmasterman said:

Sony, already had a lot of loss in the past years, and now is back up, Nintendo, cannot loss Money, other wise they would be in big trouble.

They have not yet fully recovered from those losses and it may take Sony a while to do so. 

Nintendo already did take a huge loss and they have the finances to take several more just like for for the next 20 years.

Miyamotoo said:

Do you have some links for this numbers!?

http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/sne/financials/balance-sheet
http://markets.money.cnn.com/research/quote/financials.asp?symb=SNE&dataSet=BS

Just use the symbols NTDOY for Nintendo, SNE for Sony and MSFT for Microsoft.

You think Nintendo can have 20 consecutive failed generation in both fields they have products and nothing would really happen?

And you still complain of people that think Sony is in a better situation because Playstation is in a strong position or that Nintendo is in a bad situation because 3DS underperformed and WiiU plummeted?

20 years or generations?  Failed products or failed financials?

And you fail to grasp what I'm saying and instead put what you want me to say. 

Miss read the year. But okay that would make 4 generations... Do you think having 5 failed generations would make failed financials? Or do you expect nintendo to survive 20 years by making bigger and bigger bloppers?

Sony survived 10 years of financial problems, but it wasn't exactly all their products failing in the market, was much more failure on administrating costs.

Or do financial problems come on a vaccum? Or I should say you want to put things only in a light that make you satisfied?

Teeqoz said:
SpokenTruth said:

No, that's not what recovering from losses means.  Let's look at a fictional company and I'll show you what I mean.


2011 - $500 million losses
2012 - $2 bilion losses
2013 - $2 billion losses
2014 - $100 million profit
2015 - $200 million profit

As you can see, this company is making profit again but has not yet recovered from the losses.  They would still be down $4.2 billion over the past 5 fiscal years.  A full recovery would bring that up to a positive overall figure. 

That's a pretty weird definition of recovery though. The damage of those 4 billion losses will be just as big regardless of how much money you make later. The most reasonable way to talk about recovery is if they've recovered their ability to make an (equal sized) profit as before their financial troubles, and in that sense, Sony has pretty much recovered.

Yes... when you say you recovered a company for some it seems like you have to have recovered all the losses in the past (they ignore the past is the past... unless they wanted to go further back and add also the profits and say that after losing 4,5B the company wasn't having problems)



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

SpokenTruth said:
DonFerrari said:
SpokenTruth said:
DonFerrari said:

You think Nintendo can have 20 consecutive failed generation in both fields they have products and nothing would really happen?

And you still complain of people that think Sony is in a better situation because Playstation is in a strong position or that Nintendo is in a bad situation because 3DS underperformed and WiiU plummeted?

20 years or generations?  Failed products or failed financials?

And you fail to grasp what I'm saying and instead put what you want me to say. 

Miss read the year. But okay that would make 4 generations... Do you think having 5 failed generations would make failed financials? Or do you expect nintendo to survive 20 years by making bigger and bigger bloppers?

Sony survived 10 years of financial problems, but it wasn't exactly all their products failing in the market, was much more failure on administrating costs.

Or do financial problems come on a vaccum? Or I should say you want to put things only in a light that make you satisfied?

Why are you presumming something I never said based on your error?  I really shouln't even need to answer your first question because you know good and well the answer. 

Do you consider the Wii U and 3DS failed products?  If so, then how the hell are they currently making a profit?
That said, you can also have successful products and still take major losses?  PS3 was successful and their gaming division was often taking large losses. 

No, financials don't exist in a vacuum but they aren't polarized as success = profit and failure = losses either.



 

More like Amiibo has helped bridged themselves to a bit of a profit.

So yeah they are failed products.



SpokenTruth said:
DonFerrari said:
SpokenTruth said:

20 years or generations?  Failed products or failed financials?

And you fail to grasp what I'm saying and instead put what you want me to say. 

Miss read the year. But okay that would make 4 generations... Do you think having 5 failed generations would make failed financials? Or do you expect nintendo to survive 20 years by making bigger and bigger bloppers?

Sony survived 10 years of financial problems, but it wasn't exactly all their products failing in the market, was much more failure on administrating costs.

Or do financial problems come on a vaccum? Or I should say you want to put things only in a light that make you satisfied?

Why are you presumming something I never said based on your error?  I really shouln't even need to answer your first question because you know good and well the answer. 

Do you consider the Wii U and 3DS failed products?  If so, then how the hell are they currently making a profit?
That said, you can also have successful products and still take major losses?  PS3 was successful and their gaming division was often taking large losses. 

No, financials don't exist in a vacuum but they aren't polarized as success = profit and failure = losses either.

I know the answer. Both are failures when one will sell less than 50% the predecessor and the other only 15%. They are making profits not only because of amiibos but because the R&D were already paid during Wii and DS era. And it isn't like they are making large profits, and even more they are profiting on their SW. But if they keep failing on HW and their SW having increased cost because of generational leaps but lower market to sell you can see then losing a lot of money. If you preffer to ignore all of that no problem, doesn't matter mine or your opinion the reality will stay the same.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."