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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Corporate Health of Sony, Nintendo and MS

AsGryffynn on 24 January 2016
DonFerrari said:
bunchanumbers said:
AsGryffynn said:

Ahem...

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/41027460/ns/business-us_business/t/most-memorable-companies-vanished/#.VqSYayorLIU

Alright, I'm gonna make this brief... Sony's not a beast. They are a company like all others... Any company can collapse if their cash is no longer there, so if I were you, I'd be more careful in what I say. It won't happen in the foreseeable future, but it can happen. Sony is very big and a console can't shield them forever. 

Consoles aren't even really a shield. Their big money is in their insurance and their banking. Sony could walk away from video games forever and not go bankrupt. 

The shield is the assets.

Makes sense to me...

Swordmasterman said:
AsGryffynn said:
Swordmasterman said:

Yes, i'm serious, the only company that i remember that went bankrupt was Lehman Brothers, but they were a exception, because those type of deals have a high floating price.

have a lot of stages of "Bankrupt", and Some company go Bankrupt, is nearly impossible for Multi-billion company, to go on a level of Bankrupt that will not be able to make a Come Back.

 

Even Marvel on the 90s went Bankrupt, and now we have the Avengers, Iron Man, X-Man, and a lot of other movies and now Marvel is more sucessful than DC.

 

The point of this thread was to say that Nintendo, even without selling consoles will not go bankrupt, that Sony, will go Bankrupt even if Playstation 4 breaks the 1 Billion of units sold mark, and Microsoft, will never go Bankrupt despite how many money they trhow on Xbox, and this is not how the things work.

 

if Something is Draining money from a company, sooner, or later it will be cuted off from the Company, but the company will stay alive and strong, we are talking about Companies  that have Dozens of multi-billion divisions, the author of this thread want to say that Despite how good Playstation is perfoming, Sony, will go Bankrupt, is like that Sony, will not Cut-off the other divisions, and sell some assets to pay the Debts, and still with Playstation, and that instead they will ask 400 Billions for the banks, will not pay, and will go bankrupt.

 

Never a Company that still a Market Leader, with more than 50% of Market share, with this division giving more than 11 Billions of US$ on Revenue per year, a Company would never go bankrupt being the Market Leader on 2 different markets, and with one of then having more than 50% of Market-share, and with predictions to sell  Much more than their competitor, Multiple times more.

 

Sony, is the Market Leader on Image Sensor, out there have a Sony's image sensor on each modern IPhone, or IPad, that are the Market's profit leader on market share, also Hundreds of Millions of Iphone, and Ipad, are sold throught the year, last year were sold 390 Millions of Iphone, and Ipad, if sony make 5US$ of Profit per Iphone, so already is a easy 1.9+ Billion of profit per year.

 

Sony, is the Market Leader on console gaming, is selling much more than the competitor together, and is selling 3 times more than their main competitor, and is growing more and more, and probably will sell on higher rates on the future, when you are the Market Leader you can hold Momentum until you make some mistake, Sony, managed to hold Playstation 1's momentum and made Playstation 2, the Best Selling console of all times, if they dont screw everything (and they had learned from the PS3), they will sell much more Playstation 5, than Playstation 4, and so on, Google have a Market share so big and that just grow because Google, have the Momentum, and this is a example.

 

Tell for me why a Company will not see that they are drowning on non-profitable divisions, while they are being the Market Leader on 2 Markets ?, this really makes no sense.

 

i Want you to explain your points in how Sony, will go Bankrupt despite being the Market leader ?, because this thread is about saying that Sony, will go bankrupt despite any Playstation 4 sold,  Nintendo, will not go bankrupt despite not selling home consoles, and Microsoft, will not go bankrupt because they have Money, and by some crazy reason they will stay having loss from Xbox, and will stay suporting the Brand, while they are clearly changing to PC Gaming.

Ahem...

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/41027460/ns/business-us_business/t/most-memorable-companies-vanished/#.VqSYayorLIU

Alright, I'm gonna make this brief... Sony's not a beast. They are a company like all others... Any company can collapse if their cash is no longer there, so if I were you, I'd be more careful in what I say. It won't happen in the foreseeable future, but it can happen. Sony is very big and a console can't shield them forever. 

Sony, make more profit and Revenue from Video games, than Netflix, with all their subscribers, is easier Netflix, go Bankrupt instead of Sony, because their Liabilities are much bigger, each serie cost dozens of Millions per year, Sony, is on Dozens of Billions per year level and there are not a lot of companies of this size, you want me to say that Sony, a company that make Billions and Billions with Video Game consoles, sudden will became Bunkrupt even with 135 Billions on assets and with Divisions giving Big profit ?, is safer to say that Sony, might split it-self and became a smaller company, but with more profit, than it will go Bankrupt.

 

we are Talking about a market leader of the Video Game Console Market, with more than 50% of Market Share, only on USA, the Revenue with Physical copies of Video game were 11.7 Billions+, lets say that USA, is  the World, and Sony, have 50% of Market share, this is 5.85 Billions of US$, Sony's tax to release a game on the plataform is 20% of the total, so already is 1.170 Billions of profit for Sony, only because of Tax, and they sold 17 Millions of Playstation 4 consoles with a profit margin og 19US$ lets say that is 20US$ to make the calculation easier, so Sony, made a profit of 340 Millions on Hardware, 1.170 Billions only with software's licensing Tax, and without taking the profits of PSN Plus, and of the Playstation 3, and Vita, so with Playstation 4, without Sony, releasing anything, already is more than 1.5 Billions of profit just with licensing Tax, and profit per Hardware, this is more than Netflix's profit, only with Playstation 4, on the begin of generation, when GTA VI, launch Sony, will be Drowing on free Money.

 

Netflix, for example is a growing company but the Tax of licensing is too expensive, the companies that license the series for Netflix, actually are getting more money than Netflix, Netflix, need to pay Disney, more than 200 Millions of US$ pear year, Netflix's revenue is 5.5 Billions, Assets 7.06 Billions, and Profit of 266 Millions of US$.

 

So, Sony, without making really nothing besides of selling Playstation 4, and letting Third Party Support get in, they had much lower liabilities than Netflix, and had more than 6 Times the Profit of Netflix.

 

So, if you really believe that Playstation, can die and you are basing your-self on Numbers and without any emotional felling with your "Thinkings", you also think that Netflix, can go Bankrupt, because is on a worse situation than Sony, the 36 Millions of people that Sony, sold Playstation 4, will continue buying games and will continue giving nearly the same profit per software, but who is subscriber to Netflix, Suddenly stop of paying the Netflix's Tax, is the end for Netflix, 1 year of low subscribers already is enought to destroy Netflix, cut the number of series nearly to Half, and a lot of other things.

 

Is because of that we use the Logic, Sony, is Growing and no one can stop Sony, on the Video Game Market, have rumors that the NX, will be compatible with Playstation 4, so the only one that had some chance, becoming compatible with Playstation 4, already let Playstation 4, on the lead for the  Whole generation and will of course Break Playstation 1's level of sales until Playstation 5, arrives, and Playstation 5, will have a Huge advantage over Xbox Two, multiple times the initial install base, also Nintendo, will only launch their console later, making it easier for Playstation 5, to became the Market Leader once again.

The same thing we can say about Netflix, but Netflix, is on a harder place than Playstation, Playstation, is a safe investiment and have dozens of millions of fans throught the World, and Netflix, did not have those fans, also 1 years of low already is enought to break Netflix, but the Market is showing that Netflix, will grown a lot on the next years, but this dont make Netflix, a safe investiment, because the Licensing's Tax, will also raise, with the Licensing Money, aways being much bigger than the Profit of Netflix, despite Netflix, being a Software, will have Hardware-like Profit.

 

This is my Point, Your Point is a Random site with random companies, that randomly went bankrupt, with random sizes, and just some with Sony's size, but with Floating markets, while Sony's most profitable markets are solid.

You said "no multibillion company has gone bankrupt". I pointed you towards a site with at least three multibillion dollar companies that went bankrupt in perfectly stable markets (or is the US more unstable than frontier market Japan?) and then pointed out your claim is completely preposterous... 





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Eddie_Raja on 24 January 2016
KLAMarine said:

Eddie_Raja said:

I am not arguing Nintendo is worse at profiting lol.  Of course they profit more as a company on average.  But right now they are doing pretty terrible compared to how they used to do.  The point you are willfully ignoring is that if Nintendo continues to fail they will fall apart FAR faster than Sony or MS ever would.  That is a fact.

What mathematics are you looking at?

Eddie_Raja said:

KLAMarine said:
Eddie_Raja said:

If they run out of money they are screwed!

This applies to any company. If any company runs out of money, it is screwed.

And that is my point buddy - I am glad you can read.  A lot of people around here act like MS and Nintendo are invincible, but the facts shown here clearly illustrate the opposite.  MS is the strongest, but they aren't overall that much bigger of a company.  Nintendo profits often, but they have FAR less armor than MS and Sony.

What are you equating to "armor" here?

1) Mathematics?  LOL how about the FACT that the Wii U sold worst than the Dreamcast, and the 3DS isn't going to sell even half as well as its predecessor.   In fact (outside of the Wii) every Nintendo home console has sold worse than the one before it.  If they start hemoraging money as bad as Sony used to it would destroy them pretty quick.

2) The assets Sony/MS have give them a ton of longevity in the event of disaster.  





Prediction for console Lifetime sales:

Wii:100-120 million, PS3:80-110 million, 360:70-100 million

[Prediction Made 11/5/2009]

3DS: 65m, PSV: 22m, Wii U: 18-22m, PS4: 80-120m, X1: 35-55m

I gauruntee the PS5 comes out after only 5-6 years after the launch of the PS4.

[Prediction Made 6/18/2014]

KLAMarine on 24 January 2016
Eddie_Raja said:

1) Mathematics?  LOL

Wow. Just wow.

.

.

.

I think this speaks for itself.

Eddie_Raja said:

how about the FACT that the Wii U sold worst than the Dreamcast

Dreamcast has sold about 10.6 million according to http://sega.wikia.com/wiki/Dreamcast. WiiU has already passed that with over 12 million if this site's figures are to be believed.

I'd suggest you not laugh off mathematics so easily and check your figures before making reference to them.

Eddie_Raja said:

and the 3DS isn't going to sell even half as well as its predecessor.   In fact (outside of the Wii) every Nintendo home console has sold worse than the one before it.  If they start hemoraging money as bad as Sony used to it would destroy them pretty quick.

I doubt it'll get that bad. For starters, Nintendo's not in the mobile phone business. Apple and Samsung have that on lockdown.

Eddie_Raja said:

2) The assets Sony/MS have give them a ton of longevity in the event of disaster.  

Considering how ready you were to laugh off mathematics, I'm going to have to doubt your judgement.

I'd ask you for some mathematical figures but I don't think you care too much for them.



Replicant on 24 January 2016
Pavolink said:
Wouldn't we better be comparing only game divisions? (at least now, until Nintendo enters with the mobile market and movies and series and theme parks, etc)

 

I agree with you Pavolink.

It's quite unfortunate that we aren't able to compare game divisions only. We already have game related numbers from Nintendo (obviously) and Sony (last FY Game and Network Services saw an operating profit of $404 million, link).

But Microsoft's Xbox numbers are impossible to analyse due to Android royalties being lumped together with "Entertainment and Devices". It is estimated that Xbox made (still makes?) $2 billion in yearly losses. Microsoft has yet to debunk that estimate. I wonder why.

"For the past few years, Microsoft reported the revenue and operating losses of Entertainment and Devices, which was the group that housed Xbox, Windows Phone, and Android royalty payments.
That group always seemed to be profitable, but Sherlund says it's largely because of the Android money.

Sherlund says that if you back out the Android profits, Microsoft is probably losing $2.5 billion on Skype, Xbox, and Windows Phone. Of that, $2 billion in losses are attributable to the Xbox platform." Link.



Eddie_Raja on 24 January 2016
KLAMarine said:
Eddie_Raja said:

1) Mathematics?  LOL

Wow. Just wow.

.

.

.

I think this speaks for itself.

Eddie_Raja said:

how about the FACT that the Wii U sold worst than the Dreamcast

Dreamcast has sold about 10.6 million according to http://sega.wikia.com/wiki/Dreamcast. WiiU has already passed that with over 12 million if this site's figures are to be believed.

I'd suggest you not laugh off mathematics so easily and check your figures before making reference to them.

Eddie_Raja said:

and the 3DS isn't going to sell even half as well as its predecessor.   In fact (outside of the Wii) every Nintendo home console has sold worse than the one before it.  If they start hemoraging money as bad as Sony used to it would destroy them pretty quick.

I doubt it'll get that bad. For starters, Nintendo's not in the mobile phone business. Apple and Samsung have that on lockdown.

Eddie_Raja said:

2) The assets Sony/MS have give them a ton of longevity in the event of disaster.  

Considering how ready you were to laugh off mathematics, I'm going to have to doubt your judgement.

I'd ask you for some mathematical figures but I don't think you care too much for them.

Laugh off mathematics?!   Wow no now I am laughing at your inability to read!  If you would have read past that you would have seen me explain the math.  But I guess it is easier to stop reading when you are about to be wrong, then to be forced to think differently about something.



Prediction for console Lifetime sales:

Wii:100-120 million, PS3:80-110 million, 360:70-100 million

[Prediction Made 11/5/2009]

3DS: 65m, PSV: 22m, Wii U: 18-22m, PS4: 80-120m, X1: 35-55m

I gauruntee the PS5 comes out after only 5-6 years after the launch of the PS4.

[Prediction Made 6/18/2014]

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KLAMarine on 24 January 2016
Eddie_Raja said:

Laugh off mathematics?!   Wow no now I am laughing at your inability to read!  If you would have read past that you would have seen me explain the math.  But I guess it is easier to stop reading when you are about to be wrong, then to be forced to think differently about something.

I did read past that. Notice how my post goes on and addresses points brought up after your "LOL".

KLAMarine said:
Eddie_Raja said:

how about the FACT that the Wii U sold worst than the Dreamcast

Dreamcast has sold about 10.6 million according to http://sega.wikia.com/wiki/Dreamcast. WiiU has already passed that with over 12 million if this site's figures are to be believed.

I'd suggest you not laugh off mathematics so easily and check your figures before making reference to them.

Eddie_Raja said:

and the 3DS isn't going to sell even half as well as its predecessor.   In fact (outside of the Wii) every Nintendo home console has sold worse than the one before it.  If they start hemoraging money as bad as Sony used to it would destroy them pretty quick.

I doubt it'll get that bad. For starters, Nintendo's not in the mobile phone business. Apple and Samsung have that on lockdown.

Eddie_Raja said:

2) The assets Sony/MS have give them a ton of longevity in the event of disaster.  

Considering how ready you were to laugh off mathematics, I'm going to have to doubt your judgement.

I'd ask you for some mathematical figures but I don't think you care too much for them.


johnsobas on 24 January 2016

Please don't respond to swordmaster, it's unbearable to read his posts.



currently playing: Skyward Sword, Mario Sunshine, Xenoblade Chronicles X

Eddie_Raja on 25 January 2016
KLAMarine said:
Eddie_Raja said:

Laugh off mathematics?!   Wow no now I am laughing at your inability to read!  If you would have read past that you would have seen me explain the math.  But I guess it is easier to stop reading when you are about to be wrong, then to be forced to think differently about something.

I did read past that. Notice how my post goes on and addresses points brought up after your "LOL".

 

The lol was just at your response too btw, it had nothing to do with the math.

KLAMarine said:
Eddie_Raja said:

and the 3DS isn't going to sell even half as well as its predecessor.   In fact (outside of the Wii) every Nintendo home console has sold worse than the one before it.  If they start hemoraging money as bad as Sony used to it would destroy them pretty quick.

I doubt it'll get that bad. For starters, Nintendo's not in the mobile phone business. Apple and Samsung have that on lockdown.

 

It is already that bad my friend.  One more descent into lower sales and things will start to look hopeless.

 

Response in bold above.  Not sure why you keep denying that the massive size of Sony/MS gives them armor.



Prediction for console Lifetime sales:

Wii:100-120 million, PS3:80-110 million, 360:70-100 million

[Prediction Made 11/5/2009]

3DS: 65m, PSV: 22m, Wii U: 18-22m, PS4: 80-120m, X1: 35-55m

I gauruntee the PS5 comes out after only 5-6 years after the launch of the PS4.

[Prediction Made 6/18/2014]

Swordmasterman on 25 January 2016
AsGryffynn said:
DonFerrari said:
bunchanumbers said:
AsGryffynn said:

Ahem...

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/41027460/ns/business-us_business/t/most-memorable-companies-vanished/#.VqSYayorLIU

Alright, I'm gonna make this brief... Sony's not a beast. They are a company like all others... Any company can collapse if their cash is no longer there, so if I were you, I'd be more careful in what I say. It won't happen in the foreseeable future, but it can happen. Sony is very big and a console can't shield them forever. 

Consoles aren't even really a shield. Their big money is in their insurance and their banking. Sony could walk away from video games forever and not go bankrupt. 

The shield is the assets.

Makes sense to me...

 

 

The Link you provided me, had  Companies that lost money,  went bankrupt, and became big again, had companies that went bankrupt because had poor Work Conditions, and had companies that went bankrupt because they defrauded their Revenue, saying that they had much more than the truth, had companies that only were purchased by another, and had companies that went bankrupt, just because of changes of their country's law.

And most of those companies had how be purchased with 1 Billion of US$, so is useless those companies did not had the Assets, the Solid Market, and the Momentum that Sony, have.

Also you want to say that Sony, will break the laws and will go bankrupt even having a Revenue, bigger than 11 Billions of US$ with playstation ?.

Also, you did not answer my question before, so, if you think that Sony, can go Bankrupt even getting Billions with the Image Sensor, and Playstation, you also think that Netflix, can go Bankrupt, right ?, they have more liabilities than Sony, and only have a profit of 266 Millions of US$ per year, and one of their liabilities is Disney's licensing Fee, that is 200+ Millions of US$ Per year, so 1 market flaw and is the end for Netflix, while Sony's profit with Playstation, is much bigger, and is on the Multi-billion profit per year, with Hardware, and Software, of all the Playstation's systems.

 





KLAMarine on 25 January 2016

Eddie_Raja said:

KLAMarine said:
Eddie_Raja said:

and the 3DS isn't going to sell even half as well as its predecessor.   In fact (outside of the Wii) every Nintendo home console has sold worse than the one before it.  If they start hemoraging money as bad as Sony used to it would destroy them pretty quick.

I doubt it'll get that bad. For starters, Nintendo's not in the mobile phone business. Apple and Samsung have that on lockdown.

It is already that bad my friend.  One more descent into lower sales and things will start to look hopeless.

I don't recall Nintendo ever posting a loss to the tune of $1.2 billion.

Eddie_Raja said:

Not sure why you keep denying that the massive size of Sony/MS gives them armor.

Because WHEN YOU DO THE MATH using OP's figures, you'll see Sony's armor is not as thick as you think.

Let's do the math using the following formula:

cash and short term investments + assets - liabilities - debts = "armor"

Nintendo:

$7.6 billion + $11.3 billion - $1.5 billion - $103,000 = $17.4 billion

Sony:

$15.7 billion + $132 billion - $107.6 billion - $18 billion = $22.1 billion

Microsoft:

$96.5 billion + $176.2 billion - $96.1 billion - $7.5 billion = $169.1 billion

As one can see, Sony's "armor" is much much closer to Nintendo's "armor" than to Microsoft's "armor". Microsoft's "armor" is huge compared to Sony's "armor", they're not even comparable.

With that said, the problem for Sony is that Sony is a much larger company than Nintendo. Sony employs about 130,000 people ( http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/csr_report/employees/info/ ) while Nintendo employs about 4,000 to 5,000 ( http://www.numberof.net/number%C2%A0of%C2%A0nintendo%C2%A0employees/ , https://www.macroaxis.com/invest/ratio/NTDOY.PK--Number-of-Employees ).

Sony has more people on the payroll than Nintendo, they have more wages to pay, more facilities to pay for but only have about $4.7 billion more in "armor" than Nintendo and about $147 billion less "armor" than Microsoft.

The reasoning above is why in my opinion, Sony is the weakest among the three.

 

I'm not a business major so my opinion is rather worthless and if any business majors reading this post detect faulty reasoning in my logic, please let me know.