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Forums - Nintendo - Nintendo an third parties - bad relationship?

JNK said:
Lets look as an example at Ubisoft. They gave the Wii U at launch an exclusive aa-title (ZombiU) + Raymen was announanced as an exclusive title.

And with that, your whole argument falls apart. The game was originally going to be a Wii U launch title. They delayed it to mid-February. And then, they delayed it again to September to make it a simultaneous launch with PS3/360 versions... despite the developers having stated that the game was already finished. Even the developers were upset over it, and were actively supporting the fans who were up in arms about the situation.

You're now suggesting that Wii U sales in two months were justification enough to blame Nintendo instead of Ubisoft for that? Really?

Meanwhile, ZombiU was a new franchise (despite a tenuous link to the original Zombi). Its metacritic rating was a lacklustre 77, with the user score backing that figure up with a 7.6. The only thing it had going for it, in the end, was the interesting use of the gamepad. Have you wondered why, a month after releasing Zombi on PS4 and XBO (and PC), they suddenly announced a retail release? Do you think it might be because they aren't getting the sales digitally? They certainly haven't been crowing about strong sales of the title.

 

Nintendo doesn't try to force exclusivity (unless they're actually funding game development, like the Sonic deal, or like Bayonetta 2). If a third party wants to make their titles exclusive, Nintendo's OK with that. But nobody has a problem with lack of third party exclusives. They have a problem with multiplatform titles skipping the system. And you can't blame that on Nintendo, when they did it with the Wii as well (so it's not lack of install base) and with titles that there's no chance Sony or MS paid for.

The underlying problem is that third parties have become massively risk-averse. And that's a bad thing. It means they don't try to grow franchises that are struggling (see just about every franchise that has vanished in the last 10 years), they reskin existing game mechanics when making new franchises instead of trying new things (look at how many titles are "the same" nowadays, the lack of a heap of genres that tended to be smaller but well-loved by their fans, etc), and they fill their games with as many ways to make money as they can.

Indeed, Jim Sterling has revealed something recently that makes a whole lot of sense - third parties were anticipating the death of the console at the end of the last generation, and were shifting their focus to PC and smartphones. Which would explain why both the PS4 and XBO are so PC-like, internally - they were getting third parties to support their systems through the logic of "it's not much different from PC, anyway, so you might as well". Nintendo, on the other hand, works to differentiate itself, and thus it's harder to conceptually develop for their system.

Third parties aren't taking risks the way they used to. Risks that resulted in greatly-loved franchises. Risks that saw expensive flops along the way, yes, but that also saw smash hits that did massively better than anticipated.

There aren't many major developers left who take such risks. And one of those is Nintendo - see Splatoon (as an example of one that did massively well) and Code Name Steam (which did quite poorly). See Bayonetta 2, which no other third party was willing to touch with a ten foot pole, and Wonderful 101. See their decision to take a game that didn't reach 1 million sold, and turn its franchise into one of their big-sellers for the holidays this year (Xenoblade Chronicles X), and their decision to take on another new IP that had fallen into development hell and take a risk on it, even if it didn't work out (Devil's Third). Nintendo takes risks all the time. Sometimes they work (Wii), sometimes they don't (Wii U).

For the other extreme, see Konami, who basically cut out all development of any franchise they didn't think would sell multiple millions of copies - which basically meant they were left with Metal Gear and PES... and I mean that literally, their only releases in 2015 that even register are Metal Gear Solid V and PES 2016 (they did have "Pro Baseball Spirits 2015", which sounds, from what I can tell, like it was just a roster update of the previous version). That was their entire lineup for 2015. To put that into perspective, in 2012, they released seven different games for the Xbox 360. Even the Dreamcast, in the year it was dropped, got 10 different games.

But it's not just Konami. EA's lineup for 2015 was Fifa, Madden, Battlefield, NBA Live, Need for Speed, NHL, PGA (now "Rory McIlroy", not "Tiger Woods"), a couple of Sims 4 expansions, and Star Wars Battlefront (plus some smartphone games). Think about that - of the 8 full games released, five are sports titles that get annual releases (and are mostly roster updates with a few tweaks, nowadays), leaving Battlefield, Need for Speed, and Star Wars Battlefront. Two of those three are ongoing big franchises owned by EA, and the third is a huge franchise that they got the rights to develop into.

But where are the small franchises? Where are the experimental games that might even produce entirely new genres? Where's the Boom Blox, or the de Blob, or the Mass Effect, or the Assassin's Creed? (to be clear, I'm not asking for these franchises, I'm asking for the equivalents of the first games in their franchises, being new ideas that spawn loved franchises). Where's the Okami, the Viewtiful Joe, the Zack & Wiki? Heck, where's the Final Fantasy I, the John Madden Football, the Simcity, or the Street Fighter 2?

Nearly all of the big franchises that have been created in the last few years, that haven't come from Nintendo, have either been sold as "the new franchise from the creators of <REALLY BIG FRANCHISE>" (see Titanfall and Destiny) or have been indie (see Minecraft).

One possible exception in all of this is Warner Bros. Not only did they take The Witcher, a relatively niche franchise, and make a huge hit from it, but they also released Dying Light - nobody would even be able to recall the developer by name - Techland - because their big hit wasn't big enough to make them a household name like Bungie or Infinity Ward.

Fundamentally, the issue is that third parties aren't willing to take the risks. Which is why they will complain about Nintendo consoles not selling enough, except when they do sell well enough, when they say it's impossible to compete against Nintendo. It's why EA's "big partnership" with Nintendo was only ever going to include their biggest franchises at the time - Madden, Fifa, Need for Speed, and Mass Effect - and why most of those were just dialled in (NfS was the exception, and I put that down to the developers themselves actually caring). It's why Ubisoft got spooked by the first-month sales of Wii U and delayed a title that would have sold more on Wii U alone had it released in February (and then become multiplatform later in the year) than it sold across all platforms later in the year. It's why "Killer Freaks from Outer Space" became a zombie game - zombies were a big part of gaming for a few years there, but the interest was dying down in 2012 and Ubisoft didn't notice. It's why titles released for the Wii U that had obvious ways to use the gamepad were simple ports without any special gamepad functionality except off-TV play. It's why it took Nintendo's boldness to get Bayonetta 2 going.

 

In short, it's not Nintendo's fault, it's because third parties are mostly too risk-averse to build markets, release experimental games, or more generally try anything new. And that includes support for different hardware, like a gamepad. Indies are much more willing to take risks, which is why so many are supporting the Wii U, and why quite a few are very pleased with the results of doing so. It's also why the PS4 and XBO are so PC-like internally.



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bigtakilla said:
oniyide said:

 

when was the last time a western 3rd party released anything of significance on 3ds? Launch? they dont even do the annual sports games on 3ds.

 

Maybe they should, games that were not seeing very much success actually got a second chance, such as Monster Hunter.

Besides, we're talking about 3rd party support not JUST western games, and the 3ds has had a ton.

i actually was talking about western games, because that was brought up as the ones not supporting Ninty at all. And MH was doing fine before.





Ultrashroomz said:
Well, Ubisoft isn't supporting the Wii U anymore.

It's clear that the Wii U hardware became too much of a hassle for Ubisoft to develop for, as well as several other companies.

Same thing with Call of Duty, after how poorly Ghosts sold on Wii U, they realized that developing the game for Wii U is just a waste of their time.

 

Ubisoft is still supporting the Wii U, just not with "mature" titles.



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oniyide said:
bigtakilla said:

 

Maybe they should, games that were not seeing very much success actually got a second chance, such as Monster Hunter.

Besides, we're talking about 3rd party support not JUST western games, and the 3ds has had a ton.

i actually was talking about western games, because that was brought up as the ones not supporting Ninty at all. And MH was doing fine before.



 

If by fine you mean from selling sub 1 million on home consoles (except for tri on wii) to selling over 3 million with Monster Hunter 4 and 4U (each, not together), and well over 2 million with Tri. 



Aielyn said:
JNK said:
Lets look as an example at Ubisoft. They gave the Wii U at launch an exclusive aa-title (ZombiU) + Raymen was announanced as an exclusive title.

And with that, your whole argument falls apart. The game was originally going to be a Wii U launch title. They delayed it to mid-February. And then, they delayed it again to September to make it a simultaneous launch with PS3/360 versions... despite the developers having stated that the game was already finished. Even the developers were upset over it, and were actively supporting the fans who were up in arms about the situation.

You're now suggesting that Wii U sales in two months were justification enough to blame Nintendo instead of Ubisoft for that? Really?

Meanwhile, ZombiU was a new franchise (despite a tenuous link to the original Zombi). Its metacritic rating was a lacklustre 77, with the user score backing that figure up with a 7.6. The only thing it had going for it, in the end, was the interesting use of the gamepad. Have you wondered why, a month after releasing Zombi on PS4 and XBO (and PC), they suddenly announced a retail release? Do you think it might be because they aren't getting the sales digitally? They certainly haven't been crowing about strong sales of the title.

 

Nintendo doesn't try to force exclusivity (unless they're actually funding game development, like the Sonic deal, or like Bayonetta 2). If a third party wants to make their titles exclusive, Nintendo's OK with that. But nobody has a problem with lack of third party exclusives. They have a problem with multiplatform titles skipping the system. And you can't blame that on Nintendo, when they did it with the Wii as well (so it's not lack of install base) and with titles that there's no chance Sony or MS paid for.

The underlying problem is that third parties have become massively risk-averse. And that's a bad thing. It means they don't try to grow franchises that are struggling (see just about every franchise that has vanished in the last 10 years), they reskin existing game mechanics when making new franchises instead of trying new things (look at how many titles are "the same" nowadays, the lack of a heap of genres that tended to be smaller but well-loved by their fans, etc), and they fill their games with as many ways to make money as they can.

Indeed, Jim Sterling has revealed something recently that makes a whole lot of sense - third parties were anticipating the death of the console at the end of the last generation, and were shifting their focus to PC and smartphones. Which would explain why both the PS4 and XBO are so PC-like, internally - they were getting third parties to support their systems through the logic of "it's not much different from PC, anyway, so you might as well". Nintendo, on the other hand, works to differentiate itself, and thus it's harder to conceptually develop for their system.

Third parties aren't taking risks the way they used to. Risks that resulted in greatly-loved franchises. Risks that saw expensive flops along the way, yes, but that also saw smash hits that did massively better than anticipated.

There aren't many major developers left who take such risks. And one of those is Nintendo - see Splatoon (as an example of one that did massively well) and Code Name Steam (which did quite poorly). See Bayonetta 2, which no other third party was willing to touch with a ten foot pole, and Wonderful 101. See their decision to take a game that didn't reach 1 million sold, and turn its franchise into one of their big-sellers for the holidays this year (Xenoblade Chronicles X), and their decision to take on another new IP that had fallen into development hell and take a risk on it, even if it didn't work out (Devil's Third). Nintendo takes risks all the time. Sometimes they work (Wii), sometimes they don't (Wii U).

For the other extreme, see Konami, who basically cut out all development of any franchise they didn't think would sell multiple millions of copies - which basically meant they were left with Metal Gear and PES... and I mean that literally, their only releases in 2015 that even register are Metal Gear Solid V and PES 2016 (they did have "Pro Baseball Spirits 2015", which sounds, from what I can tell, like it was just a roster update of the previous version). That was their entire lineup for 2015. To put that into perspective, in 2012, they released seven different games for the Xbox 360. Even the Dreamcast, in the year it was dropped, got 10 different games.

But it's not just Konami. EA's lineup for 2015 was Fifa, Madden, Battlefield, NBA Live, Need for Speed, NHL, PGA (now "Rory McIlroy", not "Tiger Woods"), a couple of Sims 4 expansions, and Star Wars Battlefront (plus some smartphone games). Think about that - of the 8 full games released, five are sports titles that get annual releases (and are mostly roster updates with a few tweaks, nowadays), leaving Battlefield, Need for Speed, and Star Wars Battlefront. Two of those three are ongoing big franchises owned by EA, and the third is a huge franchise that they got the rights to develop into.

But where are the small franchises? Where are the experimental games that might even produce entirely new genres? Where's the Boom Blox, or the de Blob, or the Mass Effect, or the Assassin's Creed? (to be clear, I'm not asking for these franchises, I'm asking for the equivalents of the first games in their franchises, being new ideas that spawn loved franchises). Where's the Okami, the Viewtiful Joe, the Zack & Wiki? Heck, where's the Final Fantasy I, the John Madden Football, the Simcity, or the Street Fighter 2?

Nearly all of the big franchises that have been created in the last few years, that haven't come from Nintendo, have either been sold as "the new franchise from the creators of " (see Titanfall and Destiny) or have been indie (see Minecraft).

One possible exception in all of this is Warner Bros. Not only did they take The Witcher, a relatively niche franchise, and make a huge hit from it, but they also released Dying Light - nobody would even be able to recall the developer by name - Techland - because their big hit wasn't big enough to make them a household name like Bungie or Infinity Ward.

Fundamentally, the issue is that third parties aren't willing to take the risks. Which is why they will complain about Nintendo consoles not selling enough, except when they do sell well enough, when they say it's impossible to compete against Nintendo. It's why EA's "big partnership" with Nintendo was only ever going to include their biggest franchises at the time - Madden, Fifa, Need for Speed, and Mass Effect - and why most of those were just dialled in (NfS was the exception, and I put that down to the developers themselves actually caring). It's why Ubisoft got spooked by the first-month sales of Wii U and delayed a title that would have sold more on Wii U alone had it released in February (and then become multiplatform later in the year) than it sold across all platforms later in the year. It's why "Killer Freaks from Outer Space" became a zombie game - zombies were a big part of gaming for a few years there, but the interest was dying down in 2012 and Ubisoft didn't notice. It's why titles released for the Wii U that had obvious ways to use the gamepad were simple ports without any special gamepad functionality except off-TV play. It's why it took Nintendo's boldness to get Bayonetta 2 going.

 

In short, it's not Nintendo's fault, it's because third parties are mostly too risk-averse to build markets, release experimental games, or more generally try anything new. And that includes support for different hardware, like a gamepad. Indies are much more willing to take risks, which is why so many are supporting the Wii U, and why quite a few are very pleased with the results of doing so. It's also why the PS4 and XBO are so PC-like internally.

this make senses. but Nintendo needs to get those 'multiplat' annual games (sports, COD, BF, etc).  They need the gamers to have a single console for their games.  I know some can have multiple consoles but other gamers can afford one console and use the money to pre-order their annuallized game.  Then they can look at a few very risky experimental IPs that would launch per console.  





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the relationship between third parties and manufacturers has changed a lot during the last 10 years. Nintendo has not.
Simple as that?

They need to adapt, until then, no third party support for them.

What do I mean by "adapt"?:
-System tailored for the third parties, this means X86 architecture, powerful enough and easily compatible with today's technology.
-Get marketing deals, help pay for marketing, sell third party bundles, even for games that are not exclusives.



bowserthedog said:
OneKartVita said:
It's obviously bad but the one positive is their own software sells more with less competition and they can keep the prices high.

Having 3Rd parties come in and steal their audience could be bad. For instance I believe yokai watch is damaging pokemon currently. It would be bad if all their big titles had competition.

So while there's a lot of negatives there's at least 1 positive.

 

I really doubt that Yokai Watch is damaging sales of Pokemon.  It's expanding the audience on 3ds with younger gamers who will graduate to pokemon when they are older.

 

The mobile version is absolutely destroying pokemon on the app store.  If they keep improving yokai watch and it keeps growing in popularity they will stick with yokai instead.  it's not like pokemon is aimed at adults.  It's the same target audience and yokai is winning that over. 



I wouldn't call it a 'bad' relationship per say, its just currently we all know that Nintendo systems tend to sell WAY more first party software than third party software

   of course the likes of Ubisoft are going to be willing to risk a little cash to put some exclusives on a new Nintendo system, especially because there was uncertainty of if the Wii U would be a hit like the Wii

it'll happen again with the NX. you'll have some third party developers willing to put some effort forth at the start and then DEPENDING on if the NX takes off more will come or go

there a number of significant third party software developers who actually have sold a lot of games on Nintendo systems over time, especially handhelds. the likes of Capcom, Ubisoft, Square Enix- are not going to risk permanently damaging their relationship with Nintendo because they're annoyed about the lack of a short term good connection and results

one could blame Nintendo SLIGHTLY- generally going with the goofy gimmicks and less advanced hardware (spec wise) means that its less likely non-Nintendo casual gamers are going to hop over and buy from third parties

I think third party software sales would obviously skyrocket up in sales on Nintendo systems if they just would release an extremely competitive spec system. I mean lets face the reality here, the likes of Activision, EA, UBisoft- they make a lot of the same sort of action and sports games over and over. pretty much all of their software caters to a high spec console that the 'mountaindew' sort of gamer enjoys

so for the third party and Nintendo relationship to flourish NIntendo simply needs to get on board with a more streamlined higher spec system. no goofy controller either

at this point I think a lot of Nintendo fans want Nintendo to just go back to the traditional sort of console and controller as well

at any rate I wouldn't call the relationship 'bad' at this point as a lot of the third parties have sold lots of software on the 3DS and sold LOTS of software on the DS/Wii last gen



AlfredoTurkey said:

This has been a problem since the NES. The only reason that console had such great third party support was because there were no other options available at the time. When Genesis became a viable alternative, third parties started slowly favoring them and then when PS1 came out, it all started to snow ball.

Nintendo COULD have great relationships with third parties and retailers, but they have to bend a little and go get them. I think the problem has always been that they have certain barriers that the other companies don't.

 

Nintendo has actually had DECENT third party support in terms of big titles over the years. I can think of plenty exclusive titles that make you scratch your head, like the Star Wars Rogue Squadron series on the N64 and Gamecube, and then wasn't Resident Evil 4 an exclusive for a while?

Nintendo has a good relationship with the other Japanese third party developers (namely Capcom, Square Enix, Bandai)

that said I do agree that if Nintendo chose to 'bend a bit' and present a higher spec more consumer friendly system then they would easily pull in more hardware sales and therefore more third party support

the problem now is that Nintendo is known for selling so well with its first party that I think it turns off third party developers as they are afraid that the Nintendo consumers will not buy any of their stuff. this has sometimes been the case, but then again sometimes it hasn't been

I think if the NX takes off then we'll see a bit of a mending. although I doubt you are ever going to see tons of Activision and EA activity with Nintendo, the companies are just apples and oranges in terms of style



oniyide said:
zorg1000 said:

I wasn't trying to answer the question you asked him, but what I said is relevant to what you're discussing. U asked when the last time a western 3rd party developer released a significant title for 3DS, I'm stating that I think with a unified concept the lack of western support is negated by the fact that Nintendo's ecosystem would be full of 100's of games not found on competitors devices making it a viable platform despite the lack of multiplatform releases.



the ecosystem is already like that and it aint helping them much (outside of 3ds) so even then thats not helping the lack of 3rd parties, whether we think they are important or not is irrelevant, COD, Fallout 3, Witcher, AC, GTA these series sell and there absence on Ninty systems speak volumes....but COD and AC didnt do great so maybe screw it all is better.



 

No the ecosystem is not already like that, 3DS & Wii U are completely seperate devices that have completely separate libraries so u need to own both platforms to access all the games.

A unified concept solves a lot of the problems. Like I said, 100% support from Nintendo instead of being split up among two platforms, each has good indie support but when combined they get really good indie support, 3DS gets solid Japanese support while Wii U gets very little, both get a decent amount of kid/family titles. Even the Virtual Console lineups are different on 3DS & Wii U.

Basically combine 3DS+Wii U software to get a glimpse at what a unified concept looks like for Nintendo.



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