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Forums - Nintendo - Opinion: As earlier NX releases, as bigger are the chances it wont be what your waiting for.

PerturbedKitty on 11 January 2016
Soundwave said:
Thunderbird77 said:

Multiple times I said it's not feasible or intelligent to share all games for HH and HC. Some games are good for that, others are not. Nintendo's software output will already be better than the 8th either way, thanks to the same architeture on future systems and HD development experience they aquired. Done here, bye.

 

It is feasible, the next Nintendo handheld should be able to handle even the most demanding 3D Nintendo franchise -- even the epic Zelda and Xenoblade IP. 

I don't think Nintendo really even cares themselves for making high end PS4 games, they're not interested in making games with that large of a budget because if the game fails it means financial losses. They are quite happy I think making Wii U level games (hell even half their Wii U titles don't even push the Wii U as is) and then you can scale such a game up to 1080P + AA or even beyond fairly easily. 

Even on the PS4 there basically are two tiers of games: 1) a PS3/360 tier game basically that's just up-ressed to 1080P with maybe some better effects or 2) games specifically built for the PS4/X1 from the ground up, but these games are much more expensive to make. 

Nintendo can stay in that no.1 tier, nothing wrong with that. Let third parties make console high-end games if they want. 

i think you are misunderstanding with your tiers here.. 

the reason nintendo games dont cost a whole lot is because they focus more on the fundamentals of gaming. the fundamentals of gaming isnt something that costs millions of dollars, it is something that is conjured up by really talented and creative individuals. in a sense, it is priceless. youre fitting this mindset into "tier 1," and again, youre misunderstanding what is really going on.

your "tier 2" boils down to "AAA" games that i guess cost a bunch of money to make. here, developers are not really focusing on the fundamentals of gaming and what makes gaming so great. they are funneling money into things like voice acting and motion capture.. things that arent ALWAYS really that necessary to make a great game. if they choose to drive up costs by focusing on things that arent necessarily going to make the game better, that doesnt mean that their game is by nature better or more valuable. in fact, just looking at the prices of games, i think its pretty evident that the market values nintendo's games quite a bit more. 





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Soundwave on 11 January 2016
Thunderbird77 said:
Soundwave said:

 

It is feasible, the next Nintendo handheld should be able to handle even the most demanding 3D Nintendo franchise -- even the epic Zelda and Xenoblade IP. 

I don't think Nintendo really even cares themselves for making high end PS4 games, they're not interested in making games with that large of a budget because if the game fails it means financial losses. They are quite happy I think making Wii U level games (hell even half their Wii U titles don't even push the Wii U as is) and then you can scale such a game up to 1080P + AA or even beyond fairly easily. 

Even on the PS4 there basically are two tiers of games: 1) a PS3/360 tier game basically that's just up-ressed to 1080P with maybe some better effects or 2) games specifically built for the PS4/X1 from the ground up, but these games are much more expensive to make. 

Nintendo can stay in that no.1 tier, nothing wrong with that. Let third parties make console high-end games if they want. 

Not without huge downgrades.

You again underestimate nintendo's devs. They know how to keep budgets realistic and still make amazing looking games.

Meh. Konami could get MGSV running on PS4/XB1, which is probably a more expensive game than Nintendo will ever want to make (look at the new Star Fox Zero), but they were still able to make the game run on a PS3/360. 

I think Nintendo's devs quite honestly are just fine with Wii U level power. It lets them do gameplay wise anything they want more or less. Going beyond that for them is basically just about making things a little prettier. 

I don't think Nintendo has any interest in making a $100 million dollar Zelda game. It's not like even today Wii U-PS3-360 graphics are even cheap. Games that really are high-end at that fidelity are going to require a big budget and a big team. PS4/XB1 level is simply just getting to the point where you can bankrupt your company if your game fails. 

This will be an easy transition for them too as they just started with the Wii U and I doubt their developers are anxious to make another large hardware jump just 4-5 years later. So they can continue to make Wii U quality games, they'll just run on the handheld now, and the console can then just run those same games but scaled up. 

Lets be honest anyway, if you took a game like Mario Kart 8 and jumped the resolution to 1080P, added 4X AA and maybe a couple more lighting/shading effects ... and you slapped it on a PS4/XB1 ... the average joe would have no idea it wasn't built from the ground up for those systems. It would look very well at home. 



PerturbedKitty on 11 January 2016
Soundwave said:
PerturbedKitty said:
Thunderbird77 said:

Multiple times I said it's not feasible or intelligent to share all games for HH and HC. Some games are good for that, others are not. Nintendo's software output will already be better than the 8th either way, thanks to the same architeture on future systems and HD development experience they aquired. Done here, bye.

you are right about this. this is why nintendo has been so successful in the handheld market. their handheld games are not copies of their console games. Zelda:ALBW fits beautifully for the 3DS.. not the Wii U. super mario maker and splatoon work wonderfully on the wii u, and you cannot emulate that experience on the handheld. it just isnt the same. 

the last company to try something like this was sony. they saw the vita as a portable ps3/ps4 and, well.. i think we can see that this isnt the correct mindset to have when developing these things. 

 

Nintendo's been successful in the portable market because they make damn good games period and their style of IP (cartoony kid friendly games) play very well in portable market.

they apparently play well on consoles too, right? i dont think what makes nintendo's games successful in the portable market has anything to do with being cartoony or kid friendly.

Nintendo's had many dual release games/ports that have done well on portable though, starting with the very first portable Nintendo hit -- Tetris (also available on NES). 

tetris was something that plays very well on handheld and console at that time. a game like tetris wouldnt fly on neither in this day and age (keep in mind that we are talking full retail releases here)

But in the past you COULDN'T run Mario 64 on a Game Boy Color. You couldn't have Smash Brothers on a Game Boy Advance. You couldn't even have Mario Galaxy on a DS. 

Today though if you have a PS360 level portable ... that changes things significantly. That's where your analogy works for the past, but it's not relevant for the future, which is what NX needs to address. 

a ps3 level portable still shouldnt be able to run a game that was built for the 9th or even 8th generation.. hell, look at the newest MGS. that game runs like shit on the ps3 and 360. is that what you are looking for on nintendo's portable? to just have shitty versions of the real games that are on the console? this is why the vita was such a failure. nobody wanted the "shit" version of the real game that was on the ps3 or ps4. where vita excels is in its exclusive rpg lineup. 

It's been coming anyway, each Nintendo portable has become progressively more and more "console like" and has been getting more and more of the "main Nintendo IP" each gen. This gen Smash Brothers, Luigi's Mansion, Kid Icarus, and others are no longer console exclusive. Next gen, you can bet your ass Splatoon, 3D open-world Zelda, Pikmin will likely also cross over. Pretty soon you'll be able to enjoy all the main Nintendo franchises on the handheld. 

if nintendo is going to have some kind of merger of handheld and console, it needs to be in a deeper way than what you seem to be suggesting here. if you are able to port the 9th gen zelda onto whatever their handheld is going to be without any problems at all.. id be severely disappointed. 

 





zorg1000 on 11 January 2016
PerturbedKitty said:

a ps3 level portable still shouldnt be able to run a game that was built for the 9th or even 8th generation.. hell, look at the newest MGS. that game runs like shit on the ps3 and 360. is that what you are looking for on nintendo's portable? to just have shitty versions of the real games that are on the console? this is why the vita was such a failure. nobody wanted the "shit" version of the real game that was on the ps3 or ps4. where vita excels is in its exclusive rpg lineup. 

 

Well u need to remember the "Supplemental Computing Device" patent. It would be possible that the handheld runs the graphically impressive console games but with certain flaws (like the PS3/360 version of MGSV) but when connected to an SCD, the game runs on par with the console version.





When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

Thunderbird77 on 11 January 2016
Soundwave said:
Thunderbird77 said:

Not without huge downgrades.

You again underestimate nintendo's devs. They know how to keep budgets realistic and still make amazing looking games.

Meh. Konami could get MGSV running on PS4/XB1, which is probably a more expensive game than Nintendo will ever want to make (look at the new Star Fox Zero), but they were still able to make the game run on a PS3/360. 

I think Nintendo's devs quite honestly are just fine with Wii U level power. It lets them do gameplay wise anything they want more or less. Going beyond that for them is basically just about making things a little prettier. 

I don't think Nintendo has any interest in making a $100 million dollar Zelda game. It's not like even today Wii U-PS3-360 graphics are even cheap. Games that really are high-end at that fidelity are going to require a big budget and a big team. PS4/XB1 level is simply just getting to the point where you can bankrupt your company if your game fails. 

This will be an easy transition for them too as they just started with the Wii U and I doubt their developers are anxious to make another large hardware jump just 4-5 years later. So they can continue to make Wii U quality games, they'll just run on the handheld now, and the console can then just run those same games but scaled up. 

Lets be honest anyway, if you took a game like Mario Kart 8 and jumped the resolution to 1080P, added 4X AA and maybe a couple more lighting/shading effects ... and you slapped it on a PS4/XB1 ... the average joe would have no idea it wasn't built from the ground up for those systems. It would look very well at home. 

Just stop. I bet it took a lot of extra people and money to get metal gear on 7th gen consoles and the result wasn't even good.

Yet again underestimating nintendo's devs when they always make impressive games. ps360 graphics aren't in the same level as wii u and having a powerfull console doesn't make it's games expensive. nintendo is competent enough to make amazing looking games with a realistic budget and focusing on gameplay.

You just keep this notion of "settle for wii u graphics" when they can make a lot more with little to no added costs.





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Soundwave on 12 January 2016


There are a lot of problems with supporting two distinct libraries. Every team of every major Nintendo IP is now going to have to make two distinct games for each of the big IPs.

That means the 3D Mario team (EAD Tokyo) has to make Mario Galaxy 3 and then Mario Galaxy 4, one for the portable and then one for the console. Or 3D Land/3D World.

Same with Splatoon. Same with Animal Crossing (unless the console is a flop, which isn't a good problem to have), Same with 3D Zelda etc. etc. etc. This means Nintendo teams are basically stuck working on the same IP for 4-5 years straight.

Unifying the library has bigger advantages than just helping Nintendo, they can now actually just make one Mario Kart for example and the team might be able to work on a different Nintendo IP (like Wave Race, that would be fucking nice after almost 15 bloody years off) or maybe (gasp!) work on something new.

I just don't see the benefit of continuing on, and I don't think Nintendo can do it either. "Nintendo is super efficient!" ... is one thing (actually they're really not as almost every major Wii U title has suffered long delays with their really big scale HD titles Xenoblade and Zelda U being in development for over 3 years each) but expecting them to be able to support two high end consoles simultaneously is bordering on insanity in my opinion.

It's just not doable they can't really even support the Wii U and 3DS simultaneously as is, the jump from 3DS (GCN/PS2 graphics) to XB360 level is immense too. When you get to that level of 3D the scope of the games becomes so much bigger and the visual fidelity becomes so much better.

I'll take unified library. Besides spending $500-$600 on two pieces of hardware just to play all the Nintendo games may be something Nintendo fanatics think is a great setup but guess what .... the vast majority of the market, even those who buy Nintendo hardware disagree. Most GBA buyers did not buy a GameCube, and most 3DS buyers aren't touching the Wii U, Wii needed the most revolutionary controller in the history of the business.



Miyamotoo on 12 January 2016
JNK said:
ktay95 said:
Did he just essentially say the NX should never, EEEEEEEVVVEEEERRRR release??
Or is it ok if it launches the same day as PS5?? Because apparently WiiU's failings came from launching in 2012 against the massive install of PS360 and NX cant launch yet because of PS4/XBO massive install base that it would go up against... your making no fucking sense OP

 

wii u failed in 2012 because it was just as strong as ps3/xbox360 which much bigger installed hardware bases.

If Wii U would be as strong as the ps4 in 2012 and x86 based (easy third party support), im sure it wouldnt fail.

You are in delusion if you think WIi U failed only because of power of hardware. As third party goes, third party abandoned Wii U after terrible sales.





Miyamotoo on 12 January 2016
Thunderbird77 said:
Soundwave said:

 

It doesn't even matter if the home console is a minor upgrade, if your portable is PS360 as you say in your post, that's pretty much the end for the old Nintendo hardware model. 

The costs/dev resources/project scope for portable games becomes much larger once you cross into the threshold of PS360 level visuals. 

That's effectively *two consoles* ... Nintendo can't even support the Wii U and 3DS as is without dissapointing people 1/2 the time, they simply cannot go any futher with natural hardware progression and be able to support it. 

It was stupid anyway ... imagine spending $200 million on a Star Wars movie and then forcing it into a type of theater where only 25% of the fans can watch it. Would you say that's a smart business model? 

This is basically what Nintendo does. 75% of their hardware base this generation will never play Splatoon or Zelda U or Xenoblade X or Bayonetta 2 or Pikmin 3 or Mario 3D World. Why? Because they didn't buy the Wii U. 

At some point I think it's smarter to stop lecturing people on what hardware they should be buying and just let them have access to the games, in other words enough with the hardware worship. All this was ever about was letting people have access to the games (where the real money is made). 

So why not have a rethink of what constitutes a hardware platform? Why are we stuck with rules that were invented for the 1980s gaming market? Which of these rules even benefits Nintendo any longer?

Multiple times I said it's not feasible or intelligent to share all games for HH and HC. Some games are good for that, others are not. Nintendo's software output will already be better than the 8th either way, thanks to the same architeture on future systems and HD development experience they aquired. Done here, bye.

Nintendo itself said they can effectively support two totally different platforms any more. Thats why they merged they handheld and home consoles divisions and teams, thats why NX is probably integrated platform, they will develop one game in same time for handheld and home console. That doesnt mean evry Nintendo single game will be shared for handheld and home console, but probably majority of them. We alredy saw few similars project like that even this gen, like Smash Bros. or Mario vs. Donkey Kong Tipping Stars.





DolPhanTendo on 12 January 2016

Great points from the original poster and this why Nintendo s President said we are taking our time with it meaning hint hint shut up about NX for this year much isn't going to be said until E3 then just like the WiiU another year and half until release or a year if it's handheld
WiiU after the holidays have plenty user base in the US and Japan to hold steady just because EU isn't supporting doesn't mean it's not going to do well
I agree releasing NX home console this year would be Saturn to Dreamcast



Soundwave on 12 January 2016
Miyamotoo said:
Thunderbird77 said:

Multiple times I said it's not feasible or intelligent to share all games for HH and HC. Some games are good for that, others are not. Nintendo's software output will already be better than the 8th either way, thanks to the same architeture on future systems and HD development experience they aquired. Done here, bye.

Nintendo itself said they can effectively support two totally different platforms any more. Thats why they merged they handheld and home consoles divisions and teams, thats why NX is probably integrated platform, they will develop one game in same time for handheld and home console. That doesnt mean evry Nintendo single game will be shared for handheld and home console, but probably majority of them. We alredy saw few similars project like that even this gen, like Smash Bros. or Mario vs. Donkey Kong Tipping Stars.

 

I guess the other question is why would want to not share games? 

A game like Splatoon could have double or triple the sales if it had been available to 3DS owners. Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze would have done much better too.

It's not just about sharing small games for the sake of sharing a few games, there are business considerations here too ... keeping your best games away from the majority of your consumer base is simply a terrible business strategy. 

Seeing as how a Nintendo console has never outsold a corresponding Nintendo handheld (not even the Wii could do it) ... I wouldn't count on the next Nintendo console being able to outsell the portable counterpart.

Unified library is simply a net win for Nintendo in just about every way. 

The platform gets more consistent support, Nintendo has a much larger audience for all their games and the main audience isn't cut off from their bigger games, and Nintendo's dev teams are free to work on more original or fringe projects rather than being tied down to having to make basically the same franchise over and over again (because the portable needs one, then the console needs one, and once you're finished, the hardware generation is coming to an end). IE: Instead of the Mario Kart team having to do Mario Kart 7 and then go straight into Mario Kart 8, they could just make one Mario Kart game and maybe do something else like a Wave Race game or an original IP. This would be great. 

Also I think most people simply do not want to pay $500+ to play Nintendo franchises. The proposition that Nintendo is asking for right now which is this -- you pay us $500 (Wii U + 3DS) to play basically the same franchises, give or take a few different ones ... is one that overwhelmingly is being rejected by the market. Even by Nintendo fans, many of them do not buy both. People don't want to buy two different hardware pieces to get Nintendo franchises (even when a GCN + GBA was a net $200, most people opted just for the GBA), nowadays Nintendo will be lucky to get them to even buy one

Stop alienating/dividing your own fanbase this way, let them play all your games regardless of which NX model they use. iPhone and iPad have all the same apps no matter which one you buy (99% of the same ones anyway) ... this is how NX should work and then the consumer has the choice of which ever model suits their lifestyle -- this is a much more progressive model and would make the NX a much more innovative platform made for 2016, not stuck to the 1980s model.