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bonzobanana said:
Pemalite said:


You are right, the Wii U does loose miserably in the memory bandwidth department.
But it also doesn't need the bandwidth as badly either. Curious?

It comes down to culling and compression. Because the WiiU has more modern hardware it supports more modern standards and techniques thank to it's Terascale derived graphics hardware.
Basically it can more efficiently remove stuff that simply doesn't need to be rendered, reducing the workload.
It also supports more modern compression techniques which covers a larger variety of datasets, which means less bandwidth is going to be needed.

As an example... Lets take the Radeon 285... Despite the fact it only has 176Gb/s of bandwidth compared to the Radeon 280 240Gb's of memory bandwidth... The Radeon 285 can make better use of it's more limited resources.... Essentially despite the chips having similar technical hardware, with the exception of bandwidth, the 285 isn't as slow as one would assume, in some cases actually faster.
See here: http://www.anandtech.com/show/8460/amd-radeon-r9-285-review/7
Brute force, aka. "Numbers written on a spreadsheet" isn't the only way to achieve performance.

Another example is... From the Radeon x1900 series (Which the Xbox 360's GPU is essentially derived from...) to the Radeon x2xxx series (Which the Xbox 360 adopted SOME features of...) AMD boosted Z/stencil compression from an 8:1 ratio to 16:1 and then implemented Re-Z which allowed pixels that are updated and ended up out of view to be thrown out rather than sending them to the render back ends for evaluation, costing bandwidth and rendering power.

As for the CPU. Well. The Xbox 360 and Playstation 3's CPU's were to be blunt... Utter trash. They are in-order designs, similar to that of the Intel Atom architecture, which can carry a rather large performance penalty if things don't go the CPU's way. - The benefit though is a cheaper CPU design that potentially uses less power.
Intel tried to mitigate that problem with the original Atom processor with Hyper Threading, which Microsoft also used for the Xbox 360's CPU.
Sony went the other way and threw more "dumb" cores at the problem.
Both mitigate the problem, rather than solve it.

The Wii U's CPU is an out-of-order design, it's more efficient. You just can't compare them clock to clock with the Xbox 360 and Playstation 3 unfortunatly... And I am not aware of any benchmarks either.
With that said, no console ever released has had good CPU performance, even the Playstation 3's Cell CPU, despite it "looking" impressive on paper, was actually a massive let down thanks to it's poor performance in anything but iterative refinement floating point.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/2493/7
The current gen with the 8-core 1.6ghz Jaguars are laughable in almost all aspects.


Nintendo does have options though that wasn't available to Microsoft or Sony thanks to progress... Which is Carizzo. Significantly more performance than Jaguar, whilst using less power and using less transisters... We still aren't talking Desktop-class though.

On the GPU side, things have been stagnant, at-least in the mid range, AMD has been lazy and re-badged everything since the Radeon 7000 series released 4 years ago with only minor changes. (And newer high-end offerings.)

The Wii U although on paper... Doesn't look like an impressive leap over the Xbox 360 and Playstation 3... It is, by a small degree.
Even if the WiiU had less "Gflop" and "Bandwidth" and "Rams" than the Xbox 360 and Playstation 3, it would still be faster by a small degree.

It's more efficient, it can do more work with less resources than the older boxes. With that said, I would still only peg it's hardware to be around 2x as capable but with a massive edge in geometry performance.
The big problem for the WiiU is support. Most developers don't see a financial incentive to push the box, most game engines are "ported" rather than "built" for the machine which will also impact it's potential. (I'm looking at you Unreal Engine that almost every developer uses at one point or another.)

It's still not enough to close the gap between the Xbox One and Playstation 4 though, they unfortunatly have another leap in graphics capability not only on a technical level, but in sheer database numbers too.


There are benchmarks for the cpu and the wii u comes out very badly compared to 360 and PS3 as for the gpu you have written much text on what the wii u gpu has so surely you know the exact gflops performance to put us out of our misery. All I can see online is its a radeon but its full feature set and  performance is unknown however its on a poor fabrication process with many other parts integrated on the same silicon (including the wii gpu) and takes an absolutely tiny amount of power despite being a power hungry cheap fabrication process. The best arguments I've seen have put the gpu at 176 gflops when everything is taken into account and allowing for a few generations of improvement over the 360 gpu that is exactly how it is performing. However I think we all agree this is still a big improvement on 360 and PS3 but you are still left with the huge issue that the wii u has limited cpu processing and poor main memory bandwidth. 

 


If you had cared to read. I did state the Gflops is not an accurate way to determine the capabilities of two different processors.
You can have a graphics processor that is 2 Teraflops and it can be slower than one that is 1 Teraflop. That is the entire point.

And searching around, I still haven't found reliable professional benchmark numbers for the Wii U CPU.
When it comes to SIMD though, I fully expect the Xbox 360's CPU to demolish the Wii U's CPU, but that isn't always going to be the case.
Point me to information that says otherwise please.
The WiiU also has that big fat piece of edram, which can act like an L4 cache, that kinda' reduces the cache miss hit penalty substantually, along with a shorter pipeline (Aka. Pentium 4 vs Core Duo), Out-of-order execution (Intel Atom Silvermont vs Bonnel)

The WiiU GPU can also do some tasks that would have been performed on the Xbox 360 and Playstation 3 graphics processors, such as frame buffer effects or Morphological Anti-Aliasing, which does even things up a bit in the Wii U's favor.

As for the GPU we *know* it's terascale derived. That means VLIW5. That means Tessellation. That means Radeon 4000/5000/low-edd 6000 that means modern techniques and functionality. It's not GCN 1.0, 1.1 or 1.2 though, which is unfortunate.

And 45nm isn't power hungry, it's a mature process with very low amounts of leakage, granted it's old today...  But it's cheap and mature, perfect for a cheap  SoC which isn't going to be 5~ Billion transisters in size.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

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Pemalite said:

If you had cared to read. I did state the Gflops is not an accurate way to determine the capabilities of two different processors.
You can have a graphics processor that is 2 Teraflops and it can be slower than one that is 1 Teraflop. That is the entire point.

And searching around, I still haven't found reliable professional benchmark numbers for the Wii U CPU.
When it comes to SIMD though, I fully expect the Xbox 360's CPU to demolish the Wii U's CPU, but that isn't always going to be the case.
Point me to information that says otherwise please.
The WiiU also has that big fat piece of edram, which can act like an L4 cache, that kinda' reduces the cache miss hit penalty substantually, along with a shorter pipeline (Aka. Pentium 4 vs Core Duo), Out-of-order execution (Intel Atom Silvermont vs Bonnel)

The WiiU GPU can also do some tasks that would have been performed on the Xbox 360 and Playstation 3 graphics processors, such as frame buffer effects or Morphological Anti-Aliasing, which does even things up a bit in the Wii U's favor.

As for the GPU we *know* it's terascale derived. That means VLIW5. That means Tessellation. That means Radeon 4000/5000/low-edd 6000 that means modern techniques and functionality. It's not GCN 1.0, 1.1 or 1.2 though, which is unfortunate.

And 45nm isn't power hungry, it's a mature process with very low amounts of leakage, granted it's old today...  But it's cheap and mature, perfect for a cheap  SoC which isn't going to be 5~ Billion transisters in size.

If Marcan is been honest, the CPU is practically 3 overcloked Gecko's for all intents and purposes ... 

I'm scratching my head wondering if it's supposed to perform better than the turds in the sub-HD twins ...

What do you mean by "frame-buffer effects" ? Do you mean post-processing ? That can be done with pixel shaders on GPUs with a DX9 feature set. MLAA is another post-process AA technique that never gained much traction. Personally I would've advertised support for custom sample locations like how Nvidia recently added it with 2nd gen Maxwell for MFAA. That feature is a boon for temporal anti aliasing ...

Tessellation performance in Evergreen is pitiable for the most part ... 



fatslob-:O said:

If Marcan is been honest, the CPU is practically 3 overcloked Gecko's for all intents and purposes ... 

I'm scratching my head wondering if it's supposed to perform better than the turds in the sub-HD twins ...

What do you mean by "frame-buffer effects" ? Do you mean post-processing ? That can be done with pixel shaders on GPUs with a DX9 feature set. MLAA is another post-process AA technique that never gained much traction. Personally I would've advertised support for custom sample locations like how Nvidia recently added it with 2nd gen Maxwell for MFAA. That feature is a boon for temporal anti aliasing ...

Tessellation performance in Evergreen is pitiable for the most part ... 


For all intents and purposes... Intel's latest CPU's is still based on a variation of the P6 architecture that debuted with the Pentium Pro decades ago.
Still night and day performance difference though.

Morphological AA also did gain *allot* of traction, in the console space.
Pretty much every Unreal Powered game used it to some degree... For good reason. It's cheap. Console's aren't PC's, they cannot afford to use the best of everything.
VLIW however is far better adept at handling such a task than the Geforce 7000 derviced GPU in the PS3 and the Radeon x19xx derived GPU in the Xbox 360... Which enabled an early concept of GPU compute.

And yes, Tessellation performance in Evergreen is pathetic, it's still vastly superior to the Xbox 360's Truform based Tessellation engine and the PS3's lack of one. That's a geometry advantage in the Wii U's favor.

The point is, the WiiU is more advanced than the XBox 360 and Playstation 3. It's not "Current gen" by any stretch, but still a decent jump.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Scisca said:
Xenostar said:


Disagree.

The reason no one is buying Nintendo right now Console wise. is because its around the same price as the competition but cant be a primary console (for most) becuase of the lack of third parties. If the Wii U was price similarly to the Wii, it would be doing alot better i feel. The cost of that pad is what holds the system back so much. For the right price im more than happy to buy Nintnedo just to play Nintendo game. 

If they release a $400 console thats more powerfull than ps4, that still only plays Nintendo games, then it will be another generation i pass there home console offering by. 

Nintendo make games with cartoony graphics they dont need high end power, unless they plan on winning all the 3rd parties back and good luck with that.


Look. Nintendo when designing the NX has to take into account PS4 costing $299. This is a given, they'd have to be complete idiots if they were still considering $399 competitors. This means no $400 console, you really are out of touch suggesting something like that. $299 is by far the most NX can cost. They have only 3 options really, $249, $279, $299. What they have to do is hit one of these marks with their price with a console slightly more powerful than the PS4. I think it is possible considering they have 3 years of extra tech development on their side. I mean, with a $299 PS4 (and a $249 Xbone?) just how cheap would an underpowerd NX have to be to get people interested? $149? Do you honestly think such a console would be interesting for anyone? Don't forget that Wii went against ridiculously expensive competition, something different than what NX will have to face in a year. Competition is priced very well, it's totally affordable, so competing on price really isn't the best option.

Nintendo makes cartoony games - cool, but the audience for Nintendo games only is very, very small as N64, GCN and Wii U show you. They can't afford yet another arrogant approach to 3rd parties. They need to win them back, or they are setting themselves up for another disaster. Finally making a console powerful enough and with x86 architecture would be enough for 3rd parties to give them games. Giving them tools to make the best console experience would draw their attention and also draw all gamers who "want the best".

I guess we just have different approach and expectations. We'll see what Nintendo goes for, I hope they make a console more powerful than PS4 (1080p/60fps multiplats is what I want). In any other case - I'm gonna ignore the console just like I did with the Wii U and will go for PS4.

At this point i just dont think Nintendo can win 3rd parties back, to win them back goes far beyond the console tech. Sony and MS now have massive amounts of developer support and tools, integrated systems to support games, Marketing budgets the list goes on and on. 

If they put out an identikit AMD build that the other 2 have even slightly more powerful, then yeah they will probably get ports of all the yearly franchises, but do you see people throwing aside there xbox or PS and friends on those platforms to play this years COD on Nintendo, great for Nintendo fans obviously, but its not going to help them gain marketshare.

Nintendo are fusing there consoles so they can concentrate all there user base into one place and so they can concentrate on making games that work on all there devices, instead of having to choose to make a mario game this year for this platform or that platform.



zorg1000 said:

You don't understand, completely changing who u are in order to appeal to people who don't give a shit about u is the easiest way to guarantee poor sales. Just making a copy of what Sony/Microsoft make in order to get multiplats isn't going to convince anybody to choose Nintendo over them. What incentive will the people who play shooters/sports/racing/action games on Playstation/Xbox have for switching to Nintendo?


Ohh, so you mean what Nintendo did with the Wii? They sold over 100 million consoles to people who could not care less about Nintendo, but it was cheap, and popular in seniors homes!  Go Nintendo! Ohh wait, that was the exception, not the rule. Less than 10% of Wii owners bought a Wii U. Ouch.

Here are the facts: With the exception of the Wii, every single Nintendo home console has sold worse than its predecessor. Nintendo's sales continue to drop. Nintendo is forecasting the lowest year of sales, hardware wise, since they released the Game Boy in 1989. The Nintendo fan base is shrinking, and shrinking fast, and you're begging Nintendo to keep catering to that dwindling fan base. How on earth do you think this is a smart decision.

Nintendo has to do something to appeal to those 150 million people who buy playstations or xboxes instead of Wii Us, or they might as well stop making home consoles all together. At this rate the NX Home (if they're silly enough to try and make one platform with two different specs, and completely alienate third parties) will sell less than 10 million worldwide. What then?



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haxxiy said:
sc94597 said:
StarOcean said:
I doubt it will beat the PS4 in performance, I think even wishing for it to beat the X1 is pushing it. Nintendo is just not interested in hardware power, unfortunately

It wouldn't be hard to beat the X1 in power if Nintendo keeps the $300 price-tag for the home form-factor.

Unless Nintendo doesn't go x86, then outperforming the X1 is a given, and matching the PS4 seems likely, especially if they go with a newer AMD APU that outperforms Jaguar.

 

How so? It will be hardware on the same 28nm process. The later Puma APUs are at best a 10-15% boost over the Jaguar architecture, so Nintendo would still need to come very close to the X1's power envelope to match it. It's going to be either an Oland XT GPU (the same on current AMD APUs) or a rather underclocked, undervolted Bonaire PRO, which at best places them within some 80% of the X1.

10-15% might just be enough to remove bottlenecks. Actually 10-15% extra CPU power is pretty significant in the grand scheme of things. 

I think you are greatly understimating what GPU they can put in for $300, and Nintendo's priorities. While Nintendo has never lit the hardware charts, they've always had consoles that matched the predecessor (Wii matched XBOX, Wii U matches PS3.) For less than a $100 /per console cost of production + AMD profit (in bulk) Nintendo could get Pitcairn, Tobago or Bonaire XTX (surpasses XBOX ONE and matches PS4.) The only thing that will limit this is power consumption, but I am sure they will work out the specifics. That leaves $150-200 for the rest of the components.

The only way I would see Nintendo going for an Oland XT is if they are trying to reduce the price of their console to the $200-250 range. 



potato_hamster said:
zorg1000 said:

You don't understand, completely changing who u are in order to appeal to people who don't give a shit about u is the easiest way to guarantee poor sales. Just making a copy of what Sony/Microsoft make in order to get multiplats isn't going to convince anybody to choose Nintendo over them. What incentive will the people who play shooters/sports/racing/action games on Playstation/Xbox have for switching to Nintendo?


Ohh, so you mean what Nintendo did with the Wii? They sold over 100 million consoles to people who could not care less about Nintendo, but it was cheap, and popular in seniors homes!  Go Nintendo! Ohh wait, that was the exception, not the rule. Less than 10% of Wii owners bought a Wii U. Ouch.

Here are the facts: With the exception of the Wii, every single Nintendo home console has sold worse than its predecessor. Nintendo's sales continue to drop. Nintendo is forecasting the lowest year of sales, hardware wise, since they released the Game Boy in 1989. The Nintendo fan base is shrinking, and shrinking fast, and you're begging Nintendo to keep catering to that dwindling fan base. How on earth do you think this is a smart decision.

Nintendo has to do something to appeal to those 150 million people who buy playstations or xboxes instead of Wii Us, or they might as well stop making home consoles all together. At this rate the NX Home (if they're silly enough to try and make one platform with two different specs, and completely alienate third parties) will sell less than 10 million worldwide. What then?


Exactly! I am a die hard Nintendo fan with brand loyalty been that way since birth. But if they continue down this track I will be just another fan they lose.  Honestly I should get some sort of award for sticking with them this long.



Would not matter to me personally. While more power does give you graphical edge, it all comes down to how that developer wants to create that game. Xenoblade Chronicles X looks fantastic (graphically speaking) in my opinion, but I am more drawn to the game-play mechanics and narrative elements that go into the game itself. Should those ideas be present, with good enough graphics to boot, then I am pleased.

Even if it isn't something ground-breaking in terms of horsepower, all Nintendo needs to do is make the NX more accessible for new consumers as opposed to siphoning off the existing base.



" It has never been about acknowledgement when you achieve something. When you are acknowledged, then and only then can you achieve something. Always have your friends first to achieve your goals later." - OnlyForDisplay

When it comes to NX power, another thing to consider is Nintendo's history of console power consumption, & going off that, NX is guaranteed to consume under 50 watts.

Then you have to consider the fabrication process node...will Nintendo go with 14/16 nm, or 22/28 nm? The 14nm Zen apu by AMD would give Nintendo great performance per watt but may be costly. If they go with the more mature node, don't expect a big jump.



potato_hamster said:
zorg1000 said:

You don't understand, completely changing who u are in order to appeal to people who don't give a shit about u is the easiest way to guarantee poor sales. Just making a copy of what Sony/Microsoft make in order to get multiplats isn't going to convince anybody to choose Nintendo over them. What incentive will the people who play shooters/sports/racing/action games on Playstation/Xbox have for switching to Nintendo?


Ohh, so you mean what Nintendo did with the Wii? They sold over 100 million consoles to people who could not care less about Nintendo, but it was cheap, and popular in seniors homes!  Go Nintendo! Ohh wait, that was the exception, not the rule. Less than 10% of Wii owners bought a Wii U. Ouch.

Here are the facts: With the exception of the Wii, every single Nintendo home console has sold worse than its predecessor. Nintendo's sales continue to drop. Nintendo is forecasting the lowest year of sales, hardware wise, since they released the Game Boy in 1989. The Nintendo fan base is shrinking, and shrinking fast, and you're begging Nintendo to keep catering to that dwindling fan base. How on earth do you think this is a smart decision.

Nintendo has to do something to appeal to those 150 million people who buy playstations or xboxes instead of Wii Us, or they might as well stop making home consoles all together. At this rate the NX Home (if they're silly enough to try and make one platform with two different specs, and completely alienate third parties) will sell less than 10 million worldwide. What then?


Wii U is nothing like Wii so that comparison falls flat on its face. Wii was cheap, simple, had great marketing, lacked software droughts, introduced a lot of new IP/concepts, had low development costs, etc. basically the exact opposite of Wii U.

Nintendo lost the Wii audience not because people no longer liked them but because Nintendo failed to adapt to the changing market and released an unappealing device.

The unified concept makes the most sense for Nintendo on many levels, creating a single platform available in various form factors reduces R&D costs significantly compared to making 2 completely separate platforms, developing games for a single platform vs 2 separate platforms is much more cost and time effective, its much easier and more cost effective to market one single line of devices than to market 2 distinct platforms, there will no longer be software droughts from Nintendo because all of their games will be available on either form factor, Nintendo can diversify their portfolio by creating new IP and reviving old IP at a faster rate since they are no longer forced to make 2 separate entries of all their franchises, 3rd parties are more likely to support a single Nintendo platform vs supporting 2 Nintendo platforms.

The only 3rd parties that would be alienated are the ones that don't and have never really supported Nintendo, companies like Take-Two or Bethesda. Japanese devs like Atlus, Level-5, Capcom, Bandai Namco, Square Enix, Koei Tecmo will all likely be on board as well as Western devs like Activision, Ubisoft, Electronic Arts, Warner Bros with their more family/kids/casual focused software, indies will also like this setup.

Also there is the rumor from Nikkei, which is a pretty reliable source, that Nintendo is planning on using a form of Android for its OS making it extremely easy to port over mobile games to their devices. As devs start abandoning previous gen devices, it seems like they will replace them by making mobile versions kinda like we have seen with Arkham Knight/Mortal Kombat X getting mobile versions, I could see other AAA titles like Call of Duty or Assassin's Creed start to get smaller mobile versions in place of PS3/360 versions. These games coming to NX will benefit Nintendo.

Then there is also the new membership/rewards program that Nintendo is about to roll out where Iwata mentioned things like discounts based on how many games u buy and discounts for referring games to friends. This plan will help make software more affordable for consumers.

Nintendo is also set to significantly increase marketing through various means. Mobile games/apps and IP licensing such as theme park attractions & films/series. These things will make Nintendo more recognizable to millions of people while also generating a ton of revenue for them.

More affordable hardware/software, vastly greater release schedule, increased marketing, among other things can certainly make Nintendo devices much more attractive to consumers, largely the family/kids/casual markets. I have yet to hear from anybody how making a device with a huge focus on the PS/XB audience could succeed, the only argument seems to be, "make more powerful hardware than the competitors and everything will just fall into place".



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.