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Forums - Gaming - Former Spider-Man actor Andrew Garfield advocates for a "pansexual Spider-Man"

To summarize:

1.Movies don't always stick to the source material. Please don't act like this would be a first. Some changes killed characters off before their time and we were ok with that. Changes are applauded or criticized negatively after we watch the movie and learn about how they incorporate these changes. A new twist about someone's sexuality isn't going to be as impactful as a premature death of one of your beloved characters. Yet, you are already objecting.

2.What's wrong with pushing a noble agenda using a popular character to promote acceptance world-wide? Lots and lots of movies do that, at least it's not agenda about going to war or sleeping with your pets.

3.Spider-man is not Stan's Lee property. I am pretty sure he didn't like all of the changes that were inflicted to his characters even if they were received warmly by the critics.

4.The human torch used to be a white guy. Now he is black. Why is this OK and pansexuality isn't? It's just sex in a popcorn flick, get over it.



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And one last thing:

The creators of The Bing Bang Theory gave an interview many years ago and said that Sheldon won't have a girlfriend. He's different than everyone else and that's actually fine. They clarified that he's not gay, but he doesn't have the same needs that other characters have so he will remain single. I think they said that Sheldon having a gf would go against their vision.

Fast forward a few years later and not only does he have a gf, he wants to marry her. Now, whether the creators were pressured by CBS or changed their minds on their own is debatable and perhaps we'll never know. But it goes to show that just because the creator(s) says something, it doesn't meant this will remain to be true or becomes cannon.



d21lewis said:
And why shouldn't Batman be a robot alien? The time is now.

No, the time was 1993!



naruball said:
JWeinCom said:
naruball said:
JRPGfan said:
See the character in the comic books, isnt a pansexual.
Why should the movie version be differnt? just because? it breaks character.

Doing something like this would hurt sales of the movie to much.
I dont mind there being pansexuals in movies, just as long as its not a character with a long rich history (from books/comics/tv/movies ect where he isnt).

Make a differnt super hero movie instead, one where the hero happends to already be pansexual in the comic books.

How do we know that? We know he has feelings for certain women, but that's all. There are people who (at least claim to) discover that they're attracted to the same sex (or maybe even the opposite sex) much later in their lives.

It's not like we know that he's black and in the movie he's white.

Anyway, I think it'd be awesome as a storyline, if done right, though I don't see that ever happening. He's too popular, especially with kids, and unfortunately it'd hurt the brand.

We know that because in 40 years of comic books, Peter Parker has been attracted to many different women (Gwen Stacy, Betty Bryant, Mary Jane, Carlie Cooper, Felicia Hardy, etc) and no men.  We are privy to Spider-man's inner thoughts, so he wouldn't be hiding it.  Telepaths and even Doctor Octupus have taken over his mind, and none of them picked up on any homosexual urges.

Now Spider-man has never said "ewwwww boys are gross and I definitely don't like sucking penis", because that would be unnecessary and homophobic.  But we can say with about 99.99999999% certainty that he is not gay.  If you think there is any realistic possibility he is gay, you need to read some comics or get your head checked.

And no, it would not be a good storyline.  A superhero dealing with his sexuality could be a good storyline.  A character with no history of sexual attraction to males suddenly waking up gay would be a nonsensical storyline.  Yes, people come to terms with being gay later in life, but I've known gay people, and I've known gay people that had been closeted, and I've never heard of any of them just all of the sudden going "well... I usually like vagina, but I'm kind of in the mood for a penis today."  Generally its "I always felt something for guys but I wasn't honest with what it was".  It would make literally no sense.  Not to mention it would shoehorn in a conflict that didn't exist before.  And if you say it wouldn't or shouldn't be a conflict, then it would be pointless.

First of all, if you want to have a mature conversation with anyone, you should avoid insults. As you can see, I'm not responding in kind.

Second "we can say with about99.99999999% certainty that he is not gay". No we cannot. It's not that simple and percentages really mean nothing if not backed by evidence. In this case, you'd need a scene in the comics (that is cannon, not a parallel universe) where he's really old and he talks to someone like Jean Grey (who is actively reading hsi mind) and tells her he never had any feelings for men. Also, bear in mind, I said he could be bisexual/pansexual, not gay.

You seem to have a very limited understanding of sexuality and that's fine. You may wanna educate yourself or keep your current thoughts, but I can tell you that just because you've known gay people, it doesn't mean you know everything there is to know. With limited knowledge, you are bound to make generalizations. Also, I was not referring to closeted cases; neither was I talking about Parker wanting to have sex with a man. Sexuality is not only about sex.

The story could be something as simple as Peter in his teens spending time with a new friend and developing feelings for him. He can have feelings for a man and a woman and show us how he's questioning his sexuality. This is not unheard of for people in their teens. Even if he does end up realizing that he's bi/pansexual, it doesn't mean that he must have had a relationship with a guy later on.


I have not made any insults aimed at you.  Have you read comics?  If not, then you're speaking out of your ass and should go pick up some comics before trying to speak more on the subject.  Have you read comics and still think Spider-man might be attracted to men despite no evidence to support it?  Then you definitely need to get your head checked, or at least do some studying on literary anaylysis and the nature of evidence, because what you're suggesting is totally unfounded.  And I respond the way I like.  If you find something that you legitimately think is offensive, you have a report button for that very reason.  

Second "we can say with about99.99999999% certainty that he is not gay". No we cannot. It's not that simple and percentages really mean nothing if not backed by evidence. In this case, you'd need a scene in the comics (that is cannon, not a parallel universe) where he's really old and he talks to someone like Jean Grey (who is actively reading hsi mind) and tells her he never had any feelings for men. 

And this is why I say things like that.  Do we really need a scene where Spider-man is essentially hooked up to a polygraph test and saying he's not gay to prove he's gay?  Cause that's laughably ridiculous, so don't get offended when I point that out.  Do we need to get a DNA test on him to prove that Aunt May is actually his aunt?  Should we force Mary Jane to grow out her hair to prove she's actually a red head?  Do we need to get a metallurgist to verify the makeup of Captain America's shield?  Why the ridiculous standard of evidence required for this particular claim?

But, if you want to talk about evidence, fine let's talk about it.  My evidence that Peter Parker is a heterosexual-

He's dated women.  He married a woman.  He had a kid.  We know from his internal monologues that he has been attracted to many women.  No telepath or person taking over Spider-man's mind has said anything about him being gay/bi/pan/whatever, even though Otto Octavious specifically went after Spider-man's love interests to prove himself the superior Spider-man.  We as the readers are privy to his thoughts, and those thoughts have never included anything about being attracted to men.  

Let's focus on that last one since you want to talk about evidence.  In science you have a hypothesis.  Your hypothesis is that Peter Parker is attracted to men.  Now, a theory should be predictive.  So, it should make some measureable and testable predictions.  It seems like a reasonable prediction that if Peter Parker was attracted to men, then each time he meets a man, of which he has met thousands, there should be a chance that he'd be attracted to him, especially since he's met dreamboats like Johnny Storm and Steve Rogers.  And, since most comic books are told from Peter Parker's first person thoughts or an omniscient third person narrator, we should see some sign of his attraction to men in thought bubbles, dialogue, or narration.

So let's run our test.  Out of 10000+ encounters with men throughout Spider-man comic books, the rate of Spider-man showing any signs of attraction or romantic interest is 0%.   Simply hasn't happened.  So, we have to reject the hypothesis that Peter Parker is attracted to men, and accept the null hypothesis that he is not attracted to men.

So then, present evidence to the contrary.  And if you cannot present evidence but you still insist that there is any real possibility he's attracted to men, then yes, you need your head checked.

You seem to have a very limited understanding of sexuality and that's fine. You may wanna educate yourself or keep your current thoughts, but I can tell you that just because you've known gay people, it doesn't mean you know everything there is to know. With limited knowledge, you are bound to make generalizations. Also, I was not referring to closeted cases; neither was I talking about Parker wanting to have sex with a man. Sexuality is not only about sex.

I'm all ears  then.  If something I said is wrong, I am happy to be corrected.  But yes, you were talking about closeted cases, because if Peter Parker was attracted to men, and it has never come up over about 30 years of life, then he definitely was closeted.  And yes, we are talking about sexual interest, because that was the context for the conversation.  

The story could be something as simple as Peter in his teens spending time with a new friend and developing feelings for him. He can have feelings for a man and a woman and show us how he's questioning his sexuality. This is not unheard of for people in their teens. Even if he does end up realizing that he's bi/pansexual, it doesn't mean that he must have had a relationship with a guy later on.

1.  Peter Parker didn't have friends in high school.  His closest male friend in his youth was Harry Osborne, and that's established as a platonic relationship.  Peter, in 616 and Ultimate incarnations, actually showed far more interest in females in his teen days.  

2.  It's not unheard of for people in their teens.  It is unheard of for Peter Parker, because we never heard about it. 

3.  What you're suggesting is retconning.  Changing established continuity and creating something in the past that never happened.  If this happened, then yes Peter Parker would be gay/bi or whatever.  But, it didn't.

4.  If he's not going to have a relationship with a guy, then what the hell is the point?  Why go through the effort to inject some homoerotic stuff into Peter's past to not have any follow up?  That's just shitty storytelling.  Like, seriously why?  Just to say "hey readers, just so you know, Spider-man liked this dude once.  Not important for any reason, but just so you know."

5.  You're not actually making a case for Spider-man liking dudes, you're just kind of saying that it would be neat if we got some gay Spidey fanfic.  And if we're going to do gay fanfic for marvel characters, this is a terrible choice.  Seriously, Bucky and Captain America.  Two warriors who find love among the horrors of world war II only to tragically be torn apart and then awaken years later to face eachother as enemies on the battlefield.  That's a way better story then "hey Spider-man met this cute guy once and he kind of liked him."



LurkerJ said:

To summarize:

1.Movies don't always stick to the source material. Please don't act like this would be a first. Some changes killed characters off before their time and we were ok with that. Changes are applauded or criticized negatively after we watch the movie and learn about how they incorporate these changes. A new twist about someone's sexuality isn't going to be as impactful as a premature death of one of your beloved characters. Yet, you are already objecting.

They don't, but they should.  Because when I go to see a Spider-man movie, I want to see the stories I read adapted to the big screen.  That's the whole point of using the license.  Changes HAVE to be made to source material, cause you're adapting years of comics to a movie, and certain things make sense in one that don't make sense in the other.  But, any change should have a purpose to it, and nobody has explained why this change would be beneficial to the actual story.

2.What's wrong with pushing a noble agenda using a popular character to promote acceptance world-wide? Lots and lots of movies do that, at least it's not agenda about going to war or sleeping with your pets.

What's wrong is that it's changing the character.  It's not objectively or morally wrong, it's just going to make me less interested as a fan.

3.Spider-man is not Stan's Lee property. I am pretty sure he didn't like all of the changes that were inflicted to his characters even if they were received warmly by the critics.

I agree that Stan Lee's opinion doesn't matter.  But, there is nothing in the comics to support him being pansexual either. 

4.The human torch used to be a white guy. Now he is black. Why is this OK and pansexuality isn't? It's just sex in a popcorn flick, get over it.

Because skin color and sexuality are a different thing.  Obviously there are some differences growing up black vs white, but there is no real reason Johnny Storm couldn't have had pretty much the same life experiences as a black guy as he did as a white (although I am upset that Sue was white.  They're supposed to be full blooded siblings).  If Spider-man were gay or bisexual, that would have big ramifications on his lovelife, which is a big part of the Spider-man lore.





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JWeinCom said:
LurkerJ said:

To summarize:

1.Movies don't always stick to the source material. Please don't act like this would be a first. Some changes killed characters off before their time and we were ok with that. Changes are applauded or criticized negatively after we watch the movie and learn about how they incorporate these changes. A new twist about someone's sexuality isn't going to be as impactful as a premature death of one of your beloved characters. Yet, you are already objecting.

They don't, but they should.  Because when I go to see a Spider-man movie, I want to see the stories I read adapted to the big screen.  That's the whole point of using the license.  Changes HAVE to be made to source material, cause you're adapting years of comics to a movie, and certain things make sense in one that don't make sense in the other.  But, any change should have a purpose to it, and nobody has explained why this change would be beneficial to the actual story.

 it doesn't have to be beneficial. It doesn't have to affect it negatively. You insist it would and your reasoning? the source material. Which we already established no one gives a shit about as proven by the movies that generate billions of dollars despite beind different. You care? don't watch, simple.

2.What's wrong with pushing a noble agenda using a popular character to promote acceptance world-wide? Lots and lots of movies do that, at least it's not agenda about going to war or sleeping with your pets.

What's wrong is that it's changing the character.  It's not objectively or morally wrong, it's just going to make me less interested as a fan.

Tough. He will gain few more fans and he will lose some. No biggie.

3.Spider-man is not Stan's Lee property. I am pretty sure he didn't like all of the changes that were inflicted to his characters even if they were received warmly by the critics.

I agree that Stan Lee's opinion doesn't matter.  But, there is nothing in the comics to support him being pansexual either. 

There doesn't have to be. You keep saying that as if it matters, it doesn't, as proven by the billions of dollars the movies make despite being different from the orginal.

4.The human torch used to be a white guy. Now he is black. Why is this OK and pansexuality isn't? It's just sex in a popcorn flick, get over it.

Because skin color and sexuality are a different thing.  Obviously there are some differences growing up black vs white, but there is no real reason Johnny Storm couldn't have had pretty much the same life experiences as a black guy as he did as a white (although I am upset that Sue was white.  They're supposed to be full blooded siblings).  If Spider-man were gay or bisexual, that would have big ramifications on his lovelife, which is a big part of the Spider-man lore.

He will swing from building to building and fall on a man's lap sometime in the future, and he will like it and we are gonna hear about it in the movie. As I mentioned multiple times now, stop bringing up the source material , you are not making the point you think you are making.







LurkerJ said:
JWeinCom said:






1.   it doesn't have to be beneficial. It doesn't have to affect it negatively. You insist it would and your reasoning? the source material. Which we already established no one gives a shit about as proven by the movies that generate billions of dollars despite beind different. You care? don't watch, simple.

If it doesn't effect the story in any way, then it is a pointless change, and shitty writing.  And no, we didn't establish that you can just chuck the source material to the wind and still have success.  Most of the movies that are making billions are keeping most of the source material. 

And, if you actually read what I said, I did not say anything about never changing the source material.  I said that you have to have a reason to change the source material.

2. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.  That some people will like it and some won't?  Yes, and I won't like it.  That's why I'm complaining about it.  That's what we call "expressing your opinion".    And saying "tough" is not any sort of meaningful response.  It's just saying that you don't care about my opinion, and you don't have to.  If you don't, that's fine, but when you're posting in an opinion based topic, it's kind of a pointless.  Basically the equivelent of shoving your fingers in your ears.

3.  You keep saying this and it's ridiculous every time.  First of all, who cares how much money they're making?  Unless you're a Marvel executive, that is completely meaningless.  The amount of money they make has nothing to do with the quality of the movie.  And even if it did, this is still an incredibly dumb point, because to make it meaningful, you'd have to isolate the variable (change from source material) compare it to how much money the films are making, and then analyze how changing the source material impacts things.  And even then you're be left with a stupid argument, because each change would have to be viewed differently.   Making the Vision based on Jarvis and not Wonderman won't necessarily have the same impact as making Spider-man pansexual.

The trend in comic book movies has actually been moving closer to the source material.  The new batman movies are far closer to the source than the older onese, and have made more money.  Marvel's incarnations of their characters tend to be far more closely linked to the source material than movies made by fox and Sony and have been making a lot more money.  We have movies like Catwoman, Fantastic 4, and Daredevil that completely ignore their source material, and bomb.

So what data do you have to suggest that changing source material does not influence ticket sales, and better yet, why should we care about how much money the movie makes in the context of this conversation?


4.  Since you went with a complete non-sequitor instead of addressing the point regarding the human torch, I'm going to guess you have nothing intelligent to say on the matter.  Skin color and sexuality are not the same thing.  One has an inherrent impact on how you act, and one does not.



I'm fine with whatever they want to do, I just don't see a Spiderman film that shoves a "hey look, Spiderman is gay" in our face is going to attract a very big audience. Teen Titans have Bunker, who is a gay latino male. They should make a Teen Titans movie.



LurkerJ said:
Ka-pi96 said:
Completely agree with Stan Lee on this. Characters should stay who they are, try and change that and you are just ruining a character. If wou want characters with different sexualities or ethnicities or whatever just create new ones, don't ruin the ones that already exist.

Well, here is some food for thought. Most of the superhero characters went through changes and reboots and storylines that are drastically different from each other. After and way before they started making movies and TV shows out the comics. So why stop now? 

I don't see how expanding Spider-man's sexuality is a big deal. If anything, he is that kind of a guy. "Hey guys! I kissed a boy and I liked it!". It sounds like something spider-man would say.

That's more of a Deadpool thing, but I get your point. Spider-Man is quirky and funny most of the time, so that could go up his alley. I'm not against a pansexual change. Hell, I'd be up for it. But would that be credible for the storyline? I mean, would a pansexual Spider-Man bring something relevant for the overall storyline? I believe it can bring an interesting side story, but I personally wouldn't want them to make it a selling and marketing point. Not to mention nitpickers and haters spewing their hatred all over the internet just to end that story because they want it to go back to normal.



LurkerJ said:
Ka-pi96 said:
Completely agree with Stan Lee on this. Characters should stay who they are, try and change that and you are just ruining a character. If wou want characters with different sexualities or ethnicities or whatever just create new ones, don't ruin the ones that already exist.

Well, here is some food for thought. Most of the superhero characters went through changes and reboots and storylines that are drastically different from each other. After and way before they started making movies and TV shows out the comics. So why stop now? 

I don't see how expanding Spider-man's sexuality is a big deal. If anything, he is that kind of a guy. "Hey guys! I kissed a boy and I liked it!". It sounds like something spider-man would say.

Okay. Here's the other side. Say you found a gay character comic. You read it for 20 years. You invested into that character, as any real person. Then the writers decide to make them straight. You'd be on the other side. Make a new character for this. Not alter one.