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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - What If The NX Console Is Portable Too?

Soundwave said:
Miyamotoo said:
Soundwave said:
Miyamotoo said:

Battery capacity and hardware architecture are much improved from period when 3DS was project and introduced. 3DS XL has battery 1700 mAh and pretty weak hardware specs, today phones have battery capacity 3000-4000 mAh5-6" displays with 1440p resolution, 4GB Ram, 8-core CPUs and suitable GPU and yet battery can survive at least 5 hours of constant using.

I dont see problem if handheld continue to sell better like it was always, that wasn't problem previous gens for Nintendo.

In case of devices (handheld and home console) I did not mentioned any specs but I dont see problem there either because they will use exactly same architecture, I don't think it would so much difference in power between handheld and home console, with handheld Nintendo will probably aim for 480-720p resolution and with home console probably 1080p with better textures and effects.


I've kinda thought about this, the thing is batteries are not particularily expensive. For example the battery in an iPhone 6 Plus costs Apple like $5.50. So that's no the issue per se. 

The issue is more about size. The battery is huge once you start getting into power consumption at a sustained 4-5 watts/hour for gamplay. The iPhone 6 Plus for example has 11.1 watts per hour in that 2915 mAh battery. That means at a 4-5 watt push from a gaming handheld, the battery would be dead in about 2 hours. 

You need a battery more akin to what's in the iPad and other tablets (much larger). The fourth gen iPad for example had an insane 43 watts per hour battery (I suspect the new iPad Pro is about the same or even bigger). 

Not to mention the heat being generated. 

For the portable Nintendo may honestly be better off going with a more tablet like form factor (like the iPad mini) and then waiting for a die shrink to 10nm for a more classic GBA SP/DS styled handheld as the years go on. 

I dont see how exactly 3000 mAh battery could last only 2 hours in gaming handheld when 1700 mAh battery last around 4-5 hours in 3DS XL or 1500 mAh Wii U gamepad battery last around 4 hours on 6.2" display!?

About size and form factor, do you realise that 5" phones now have battery with 4000 mAh!? So we have device that is much smaller than 3DS XL (not mentioned Wii U gamepad) with battery twice of Wii U gamepad capacity.

Smartphones generally are not pushed to 5-6 watts/hour, things like browsing the internet or what people normally do on their phone eats up maybe 2-3 watts/hour. 

You want a battery more like the one in the iPad Air 2 -- 7000-8000+ mAh, then you can get a fairly high end level of gaming performance (PS3+/Wii U level) using a 14nm chip at 70 GFLOPS/watt. Or even better yet the monstrous 11,560 MaH battery from the 4th gen iPad. 

The battery isn't even that expensive, it's just that it's large. It would be very difficult to put that kind of battery into a 3DS XL form factor for now (maybe when you get to 10nm that becomes a possibility). But it would be workable in a tablet size casing for next year, of that I'm fairly sure. 


This level of performance isn't even remotely possible yet when using the comparisons between PS4 and XB1, dude you really need to stop using Flops to compare different company's technologies, it's a pointless comparison.

The various companies making different processing technologies do not use the same standard for measuring Floating Point Operations, so trying to compare Apple's tech to IBM or whoever else Nintendo may use for their processors makes your points about flops per watt moot.

Comparing like for like, like AMD's last generation to this one is way more fitting, TBH AMD are most likely who Nintendo are going to partner with for various reasons, mainly because they've been ATI/AMD partners on their GPU for years and a single SOC for everything processor related in your device makes manufacturing much simpler and cheaper.

Hell we even have AMD saying they've partnered with a company to make a processor for a new console and we know Nintendo are announcing NX next year, it may be a slight reach to say it's definitely AMD, but it's not a reach in the slightest to say that AMD are the most likely partner for this.



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gabzjmm23 said:
MikeRox said:

However "What if NX is portable too?" then damn, N3DS owners got so burned if they upgraded from a regular 3DS.

Why woudl n3Ds owners would get burned? those who bought n3Ds would probably wait for a year or two before going buying NX portable.  that is the same case across all later adopters of a console. Like buying a PS3 a year before PS4.


If they upgraded from the  regular 3DS, they basically got 1 game... If that was worth £200 then wow.

Note that the emphasis was on 3DS owners upgrading, not DS owners.



RIP Dad 25/11/51 - 13/12/13. You will be missed but never forgotten.

JustBeingReal said:
Soundwave said:

Smartphones generally are not pushed to 5-6 watts/hour, things like browsing the internet or what people normally do on their phone eats up maybe 2-3 watts/hour. 

You want a battery more like the one in the iPad Air 2 -- 7000-8000+ mAh, then you can get a fairly high end level of gaming performance (PS3+/Wii U level) using a 14nm chip at 70 GFLOPS/watt. Or even better yet the monstrous 11,560 MaH battery from the 4th gen iPad. 

The battery isn't even that expensive, it's just that it's large. It would be very difficult to put that kind of battery into a 3DS XL form factor for now (maybe when you get to 10nm that becomes a possibility). But it would be workable in a tablet size casing for next year, of that I'm fairly sure. 


This level of performance isn't even remotely possible yet when using the comparisons between PS4 and XB1, dude you really need to stop using Flops to compare different company's technologies, it's a pointless comparison.

The various companies making different processing technologies do not use the same standard for measuring Floating Point Operations, so trying to compare Apple's tech to IBM or whoever else Nintendo may use for their processors makes your points about flops per watt moot.

Comparing like for like, like AMD's last generation to this one is way more fitting, TBH AMD are most likely who Nintendo are going to partner with for various reasons, mainly because they've been ATI/AMD partners on their GPU for years and a single SOC for everything processor related in your device makes manufacturing much simpler and cheaper.

Hell we even have AMD saying they've partnered with a company to make a processor for a new console and we know Nintendo are announcing NX next year, it may be a slight reach to say it's definitely AMD, but it's not a reach in the slightest to say that AMD are the most likely partner for this.


Pretty sure that is what AMD is aiming for with the 14nm FinFET process that starts next year. 

The Tegra X1 gets 500 GFLOPS at roughly 10 watts, but that's at 20nm, the rumor is they are moving to 14nm FinFET later this year, which will allow the X1 to be put into a mini-tablet form factor. 

The Power VR GT 7900 also gets 800 GFLOPS at about 10-12 watts and that's at 14nm/16nm. 

I think what Nintendo will be using will more akin to these new advances in mobile tech, not based on AMD's existing desktop/laptop processors. Those just don't have anywhere close to the power efficiency to reasonably power a portable, which is essential to the NX concept. 

IMO if AMD cannot give Nintendo similar performance/watt that Nvidia and PowerVR (Apple) is getting, then they've made a huge mistake in choosing AMD again. 



Miguel_Zorro said:
zorg1000 said:

Well there is this quote from Iwata last year that Soundwave just posted,

"Still, I am not sure if the form factor (the size and configuration of the hardware) will be integrated. In contrast, the number of form factors might increase. Currently, we can only provide two form factors because if we had three or four different architectures, we would face serious shortages of software on every platform. To cite a specific case, Apple is able to release smart devices with various form factors one after another because there is one way of programming adopted by all platforms. Apple has a common platform called iOS. Another example is Android. Though there are various models, Android does not face software shortages because there is one common way of programming on the Android platform that works with various models. 

 

The point is, Nintendo platforms should be like those two examples. Whether we will ultimately need just one device will be determined by what consumers demand in the future, and that is not something we know at the moment. However, we are hoping to change and correct the situation in which we develop games for different platforms individually and sometimes disappoint consumers with game shortages as we attempt to move from one platform to another, and we believe that we will be able to deliver tangible results in the future."

He doesn't rule out the idea of a single device but he seems to be leaning toward the idea of multiple form factors. Also the recent patents that released were for a home console.


So if he's comparing to iOS, we're looking at more or less the same software,  but multiple different pieces of hardware that can play it.  I still think they'll go with one device that switches back and forth between mobile/home console.

Although not every iPad game works on iPhone today.

Essentially, so we may see something like NX Console & NX Portable that share the same architecture & operating system that allows for cross buy/play/save. I personally think the console will basically be a souped up version of the portable (2x CPU cores, 2x GPU gflops, 2x RAM) so that games can easily be created for both devices with some minor tweaks like resolution.



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

zorg1000 said:

Essentially, so we may see something like NX Console & NX Portable that share the same architecture & operating system that allows for cross buy/play/save. 

Those quotes from Iwata aren't referencing their libraries though, his comparisons to iOS and Android are that they have a common way of programing that works on various models. That doesn't mean there will be a shared library. If you look at some of Iwata's other statements and remarks, he clearly wants to create an environment where they dont start from scratch development-wise like they do with every launch of new hardware, which causes software droughts in the launch window. Not once does he, nor any Nintendo rep ever mention a "shared library". A shared architecture can imply a shared library, but at this point, no Nintendo rep has ever confirmed this to be true. 

zorg1000 said:

I personally think the console will basically be a souped up version of the portable (2x CPU cores, 2x GPU gflops, 2x RAM) so that games can easily be created for both devices with some minor tweaks like resolution.

But then that places the NX Console in a very compromising position, meaning that it's gonna be intentionally kept VERY underpowered (like, nowhere near PS4 power) just so it could be cross-play with the NX Handheld. Who would wanna play handheld games in higher resolution on a console? There will be no point to the console-version of NX. 



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forethought14 said:
zorg1000 said:

Essentially, so we may see something like NX Console & NX Portable that share the same architecture & operating system that allows for cross buy/play/save. 

Those quotes from Iwata aren't referencing their libraries though, his comparisons to iOS and Android are that they have a common way of programing that works on various models. That doesn't mean there will be a shared library. If you look at some of Iwata's other statements and remarks, he clearly wants to create an environment where they dont start from scratch development-wise like they do with every launch of new hardware, which causes software droughts in the launch window. Not once does he, nor any Nintendo rep ever mention a "shared library". A shared architecture can imply a shared library, but at this point, no Nintendo rep has ever confirmed this to be true. 

zorg1000 said:

 I personally think the console will basically be a souped up version of the portable (2x CPU cores, 2x GPU gflops, 2x RAM) so that games can easily be created for both devices with some minor tweaks like resolution.

But then that places the NX Console in a very compromising position, meaning that it's gonna be intentionally kept VERY underpowered (like, nowhere near PS4 power) just so it could be cross-play with the NX Handheld. Who would wanna play handheld games in higher resolution on a console? There will be no point to the console-version of NX. 


Shared ecosystem is meaningless from a practical POV if there isn't shared games. Imagine iPad, iPhone, iPod touch if the apps (the software) weren't shared. That would basically render the whole concept moot. 

As to the second point, maybe Nintendo is simply waving the towel to the graphics race and saying "we're fine with basically making our games with about Wii U fidelity". The advantage for Nintendo would be that they can now sell all their games to the vast majority of their fanbase. For example right now they can only sell Splatoon to like 20% of their audience base because it can't be shared with the 3DS. I think they want to get away from that problem in particular. The best/most expensive to make Nintendo games should not be selling to the lowest section of their userbase, that's just bad business, and I think really more than anything that might be the driving force behind Nintendo's unification plans. 

It's not the approach that thrills me as a gamer per se, but I can see the reasoning from a business point of view. Unforatunetly I don't think Nintendo really cares much about graphics performance, even 2/3rds of their Wii U games barely utilize the Wii U's hardware as is. Most of their design teams will likely be as happy as pigs in dirt with a home console even just 2x the Wii U. 

I hope they don't go this route, but deep down in my gut, I can totally see them doing it. You're right though, the console likely wouldn't sell that great, but maybe Nintendo has simply made peace with that are happy to at least get all their games to their wider fan base which they can't do right now with 3DS/Wii U.

If the 3DS could run Wii U games (even down rezzed-ones) that would means games like Splatoon, Mario 3D World, Legend of Zelda, Bayonetta 2, etc. would have had access to like 5x the userbase (52 million 3DS owners + 10 million Wii U owners) but that isn't possible today, my guess is that will change with NX. 



MikeRox said:
gabzjmm23 said:

Why woudl n3Ds owners would get burned? those who bought n3Ds would probably wait for a year or two before going buying NX portable.  that is the same case across all later adopters of a console. Like buying a PS3 a year before PS4.


If they upgraded from the  regular 3DS, they basically got 1 game... If that was worth £200 then wow.

Note that the emphasis was on 3DS owners upgrading, not DS owners.


there are two games for n3Ds as an exclusive.  that is true, but there is a portion of gamrs who are early adopters of 3Ds that wanted a new SKU unit. same goes to PS3 to PS3 slim buyers which basically doesn't even have exclusive games for PS3 slim.



Soundwave said:
Miyamotoo said:
Soundwave said:
Miyamotoo said:

Battery capacity and hardware architecture are much improved from period when 3DS was project and introduced. 3DS XL has battery 1700 mAh and pretty weak hardware specs, today phones have battery capacity 3000-4000 mAh5-6" displays with 1440p resolution, 4GB Ram, 8-core CPUs and suitable GPU and yet battery can survive at least 5 hours of constant using.

I dont see problem if handheld continue to sell better like it was always, that wasn't problem previous gens for Nintendo.

In case of devices (handheld and home console) I did not mentioned any specs but I dont see problem there either because they will use exactly same architecture, I don't think it would so much difference in power between handheld and home console, with handheld Nintendo will probably aim for 480-720p resolution and with home console probably 1080p with better textures and effects.


I've kinda thought about this, the thing is batteries are not particularily expensive. For example the battery in an iPhone 6 Plus costs Apple like $5.50. So that's no the issue per se. 

The issue is more about size. The battery is huge once you start getting into power consumption at a sustained 4-5 watts/hour for gamplay. The iPhone 6 Plus for example has 11.1 watts per hour in that 2915 mAh battery. That means at a 4-5 watt push from a gaming handheld, the battery would be dead in about 2 hours. 

You need a battery more akin to what's in the iPad and other tablets (much larger). The fourth gen iPad for example had an insane 43 watts per hour battery (I suspect the new iPad Pro is about the same or even bigger). 

Not to mention the heat being generated. 

For the portable Nintendo may honestly be better off going with a more tablet like form factor (like the iPad mini) and then waiting for a die shrink to 10nm for a more classic GBA SP/DS styled handheld as the years go on. 

I dont see how exactly 3000 mAh battery could last only 2 hours in gaming handheld when 1700 mAh battery last around 4-5 hours in 3DS XL or 1500 mAh Wii U gamepad battery last around 4 hours on 6.2" display!?

About size and form factor, do you realise that 5" phones now have battery with 4000 mAh!? So we have device that is much smaller than 3DS XL (not mentioned Wii U gamepad) with battery twice of Wii U gamepad capacity.

Smartphones generally are not pushed to 5-6 watts/hour, things like browsing the internet or what people normally do on their phone eats up maybe 2-3 watts/hour. 

You want a battery more like the one in the iPad Air 2 -- 7000-8000+ mAh, then you can get a fairly high end level of gaming performance (PS3+/Wii U level) using a 14nm chip at 70 GFLOPS/watt. Or even better yet the monstrous 11,560 MaH battery from the 4th gen iPad. 

The battery isn't even that expensive, it's just that it's large. It would be very difficult to put that kind of battery into a 3DS XL form factor for now (maybe when you get to 10nm that becomes a possibility). But it would be workable in a tablet size casing for next year, of that I'm fairly sure. 

I already wrote you, if 1700 mAh battery last around 4-5 hours in 3DS XL or 1500 mAh Wii U gamepad battery last around 4 hours on 6.2" display how exatly 3000 mAh battery would be to little for next Nintendo gameing handheld with probably 5-6" display!?

Todays 3000-4000 mAh battery are pretty small because they fit without problems in 5" phones.

 



zorg1000 said:
Miguel_Zorro said:


So if he's comparing to iOS, we're looking at more or less the same software,  but multiple different pieces of hardware that can play it.  I still think they'll go with one device that switches back and forth between mobile/home console.

Although not every iPad game works on iPhone today.

Essentially, so we may see something like NX Console & NX Portable that share the same architecture & operating system that allows for cross buy/play/save. I personally think the console will basically be a souped up version of the portable (2x CPU cores, 2x GPU gflops, 2x RAM) so that games can easily be created for both devices with some minor tweaks like resolution.

I agree, but regardless of specs, It really depends of power of power of handheld, if gamepad have enough power for 720p (similar power like Wii U) then I can see home console that is 2x or 3x stronger than handheld in order to achieve 1080p/60fps.



Soundwave said:

Shared ecosystem is meaningless from a practical POV if there isn't shared games. Imagine iPad, iPhone, iPod touch if the apps (the software) weren't shared. That would basically render the whole concept moot. 

As to the second point, maybe Nintendo is simply waving the towel to the graphics race and saying "we're fine with basically making our games with about Wii U fidelity". The advantage for Nintendo would be that they can now sell all their games to the vast majority of their fanbase. For example right now they can only sell Splatoon to like 20% of their audience base because it can't be shared with the 3DS. I think they want to get away from that problem in particular. The best/most expensive to make Nintendo games should not be selling to the lowest section of their userbase, that's just bad business, and I think really more than anything that might be the driving force behind Nintendo's unification plans. 

It's not the approach that thrills me as a gamer per se, but I can see the reasoning from a business point of view. Unforatunetly I don't think Nintendo really cares much about graphics performance, even 2/3rds of their Wii U games barely utilize the Wii U's hardware as is. Most of their design teams will likely be as happy as pigs in dirt with a home console even just 2x the Wii U. 

I hope they don't go this route, but deep down in my gut, I can totally see them doing it. You're right though, the console likely wouldn't sell that great, but maybe Nintendo has simply made peace with that are happy to at least get all their games to their wider fan base which they can't do right now with 3DS/Wii U.

If the 3DS could run Wii U games (even down rezzed-ones) that would means games like Splatoon, Mario 3D World, Legend of Zelda, Bayonetta 2, etc. would have had access to like 5x the userbase (52 million 3DS owners + 10 million Wii U owners) but that isn't possible today, my guess is that will change with NX. 

If you read Iwata's statements regarding their comparisons with iOS, Android and "architecture integration", he doesn't seem to mention a shared library at all. What they want, is to find a way to see if "the transition of software from platform to platform can be made simpler" and that "this will help solve the problem of game shortages in launch periods of new platforms". According to Iwata, the reason for this, is to "avoid the situation in the past in which various software assets could not be leveraged when we launched a new hardware system because making software on the new hardware was significantly different from that of previous systems." It's to integrate "software development methods, operating systems and built-in software and software assets for each platform so that [they] can use them across different machines." I'm sure there can be some games that use this concept where it's cross-play, but their entire library? That's not likely, especially since it will make their consoles obselete, and I doubt they have given up.

Let's also not forget about Nintendo's philosophies regarding the differences between home consoles and handhelds. Iwata believed that "there will always be unique experiences that only home consoles can realize. Nintendo has to make efforts to offer the public something only our home console systems can achieve ... (stuff about watching TV programs, etc) ... We must focus on what kinds of unique entertainment can be created when a home console can reproduce its images on a large monitor screen which can be viewed by several people at the same time." If NX was both a handheld and a console that shared a library, then this philosophy woudn't make any sense since that will destroy the notion that there are experiences that only home consoles on large TV screens can achieve. If all you're playing on the TV are handheld games in higher resolution, then those aren't the rich, unique home console experiences Iwata talked about. Miyamoto has stated something about the fact that home consoles and handhelds are different, he believes that "handheld devices and home consoles will continue to coexist for the time being because they have different goals" As of now, this hasn't changed. Their handheld and console games aren't the same experiences. 

Has anyone considered the idea that NX may not even be a successor to either 3DS or Wii U, but a 3rd pillar system? People are thinking that this is a successor to one of those, but what if it's like the DS was supposed to be during the Gamecube and GBA era?