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Forums - Movies & TV - Game of Thrones Season 5 - anyone still watching? Unhidden spoilers ahead!

Soleron said:

I've only skim-read the books and I think the show has improved a lot since a few seasons ago. The deviations from the books seem justified to me for pacing reasons.

Every time I think the show has an A+ episode I go on the internet and everyone's rated it as "C-, character X didn't stay true to their book character"

From now on, there won't be a problem. It will be all new content ;)



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binary solo said:
Kylar18 said:
I'm a big fan of the books, and think the show has been really good, different, but good. This season has been losing me though, as I'm finding some of the content very disturbing, and not in the source material. Although, I've heard what happeneed to Shireen came from G.R.R.M himself, so it will be interesting to see how it plays out in the books.

Except unless Stannis magically teleports his way back to the Wall the decision to burn Shireen will not involve him, which is quite a big difference with respect to Stannis morals, ethics and state of mind. If it's purely Selyse and Mel who make the call the burn Shireen to help out Stannis then that changes the character dynamic completely, especially since in this episode it's Selyse who breaks down and ends up desperately wanting the burning to stop. It's not the burning of Shireen that's the problem it's the character assassination of Stannis that is the problem. People who never liked Stannis from the start are all fine and dandy with his total moral corruption. 

The show has become very lame in other story departments too, it lacks depth, subtlety  and complexity.

Lol @ character assassination.  In his very first scene Stanis is burning family members at the stake. He has no problem sacrificing the lives of coutless soldiers or close loved ones. He killed his own brother. You clearly haven't been paying attention to who he is. But that's OK, because most don't.  As the producers said, no one cared when Stannis was killing strangers with no screen time. They wanted him to kill someone you cared about so you could feel who he is.  Cold, cruel and fanatical in his cause.

 



The same is fairly true about the Sansa rape. People say it didn't happen in the books but it did - just not to Sansa. Bad things mean so much more when they happen to someone you care about.



I don't mind the changes from the book as long as they are for the better and many are the ideas of GRRM himself . The epic Hardhome battle, for example , was the highlight of the season . The changing of Rob Stark's wife to a foreigner lessened the whole plot even if it was largely the idea of Martin. The gay oppression also seems like a needless addition for television.



TheLastStarFighter said:
The same is fairly true about the Sansa rape. People say it didn't happen in the books but it did - just not to Sansa. Bad things mean so much more when they happen to someone you care about.

Yeah, and from what I hear, the rape in the books to Jeyne (Fake Arya), was quite a bit worse.



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TheLastStarFighter said:
binary solo said:

Except unless Stannis magically teleports his way back to the Wall the decision to burn Shireen will not involve him, which is quite a big difference with respect to Stannis morals, ethics and state of mind. If it's purely Selyse and Mel who make the call the burn Shireen to help out Stannis then that changes the character dynamic completely, especially since in this episode it's Selyse who breaks down and ends up desperately wanting the burning to stop. It's not the burning of Shireen that's the problem it's the character assassination of Stannis that is the problem. People who never liked Stannis from the start are all fine and dandy with his total moral corruption. 

The show has become very lame in other story departments too, it lacks depth, subtlety  and complexity.

Lol @ character assassination.  In his very first scene Stanis is burning family members at the stake. He has no problem sacrificing the lives of coutless soldiers or close loved ones. He killed his own brother. You clearly haven't been paying attention to who he is. But that's OK, because most don't.  As the producers said, no one cared when Stannis was killing strangers with no screen time. They wanted him to kill someone you cared about so you could feel who he is.  Cold, cruel and fanatical in his cause.

 

He killed his brother because his brother was trying to usurp Stannis' position as rightful king, i.e. Renly was guilty of treason. Whatever you might say about Stannis as a person, he was Robert's heir by the laws of Westeros. If a king has no trueborn children the crown goes to the oldest surviving male sibling, i.e. Stannis. In the medieval world what do you expect a rightful king in waiting to do with a family member who refuses to support your claim and worse still makes a reasonous counter-claim?  The answer is death, always death. I'm sure you would have been fine with Stannis and Mel sending his smoke baby to assassinate Joffery or Balon Greyjoy. Renly was happy to see Stannis dead if Stannis didn't bend the knee, only Renly would have had to oversee the slaughter of thousands of people to get to Stannis and kill him. Stannis managed it with just one death. Which is the more honourable way to rid yourself of a usurper? And you can't leave a would be usurper alive because there is always the chance of people rallying again to his cause. Even if Stannis were to defeat Renly "honourably" on the field of battle the end result would still be Renly's death. Why people think the method Stannis employs is to bad and evil and morally wrong is the the lol-worthy thing in this situation.

In his very first scene Stannis is burning statues of the Seven, not people. Also just burning his brother-in-law on the show because he wouldn't follow the red god is in iteslf a character assassination of Stannis in the books. Stannis burns his brother-in-law because his BiL acted without Stannis' authority and wrote to Joffery wanting to do a peace deal. That's treason, the penalty for that is death. I think you'd agree that while it might be harsh punishment it is not without justification in the context of the situation. In the books Mance Rayder never burns and it's not because Mance bends the knee, it's because there is a much better use for Mance, and someone rather more worthy of death is substituted to make it look like Mance is being burned. 

Stannis does intend to do a couple of morally questionable burnings in the book, but never of a direct legitimate relative, without cause. The show has been assassinating Stannis' character from the start, but burning his own daughter was merely the most egregious step they took to finally kill off any semblance of sympathy  anyone might have for show Stannis. TV show-wise Stannis' character is irredeemable unless the burning of Shirren was a ruse, which is probably isn't. And I will be very pissed at the show writers if Davos sticks with Stannis. Davos should, for lack of any better claimant to the throne, give himself the the Night's Watch, or if he can get to Mereen throw in with Dany, though I can't see why Dany would accept into her service the person who was the saviour of Storm's End during the overthrow of the Targaryen reign.

By contrast in the books, in terms of legitimacy of claim on the Iron throne, I am still firmly on team Stannis, both in terms of right of claim and best person for the job out of the contenders. In terms of who are the heroes who will save the world from the long night, I think that's probably Jon and Dany. The problem for Stannis is that while he has a claim on the Iron Throne Mel has mislead Stannis about his destiny. Whether Mel is deluded and believes it herself, or whether she's playing Stannis was not obvious until we got Mel PoVs in Dance with Dragons (the book) and it appears Mel genuinely believes Stannis is the great hero of their time. And while it's very difficult to justify burning innocent children, when the threat to human existience is real (which in the context of this story it is very real) then one can understand a point of view that says, yeah the cost benefit of burning a child is worth it if it saves all of humanity (not just Westeros, but all humanity).

Re the rape of Sansa. My complaint isn;t that it happened, but that in the book there was an important thematic and story context to it. In the show we already know the depth of Ramsey's depravity from witnessing the systematic brutalisation of Theon, and the hunting of the girl in the woods. In the book we don;t see much of Ramsey's truely awful nature until the wedding night with Jeyne. There is also the suggestion that Ramsey and Roose both know Jeyne is not really a Stark, and that thematically even Ramsey and Roose would think better than to be totally abusive to a legitimate Stark. Classism and an inherent respect for class does exist in those worlds, so the cruelty to Sansa is questionable merely from the fact that Jeyne is lowborn and the Bolton's probably know it and therefore they are completely unconstrained by social convention.



“The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.” - Bertrand Russell

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace."

Jimi Hendrix

 

I just got caught up,but there seems to be book spoilers flying around all over the place in here, so I wont be sticking around to discuss anything @.@



Apart from hardborn, I thought this season has been pretty boring. I haven't watched the latest one yet.



binary solo said:
TheLastStarFighter said:

Lol @ character assassination.  In his very first scene Stanis is burning family members at the stake. He has no problem sacrificing the lives of coutless soldiers or close loved ones. He killed his own brother. You clearly haven't been paying attention to who he is. But that's OK, because most don't.  As the producers said, no one cared when Stannis was killing strangers with no screen time. They wanted him to kill someone you cared about so you could feel who he is.  Cold, cruel and fanatical in his cause.

 

Stannis does intend to do a couple of morally questionable burnings in the book, but never of a direct legitimate relative, without cause. The show has been assassinating Stannis' character from the start, but burning his own daughter was merely the most egregious step they took to finally kill off any semblance of sympathy  anyone might have for show Stannis. TV show-wise Stannis' character is irredeemable unless the burning of Shirren was a ruse, which is probably isn't. And I will be very pissed at the show writers if Davos sticks with Stannis. Davos should, for lack of any better claimant to the throne, give himself the the Night's Watch, or if he can get to Mereen throw in with Dany, though I can't see why Dany would accept into her service the person who was the saviour of Storm's End during the overthrow of the Targaryen reign.

In the books we've seen Stannis burn people close to him (Maester Cressen) and favor burning children (Edric Storm).  Essentially you're arguing that the show has made Stannis 'unlikable' (he's not exactly a loveable guy in the books) because they've stripped away his hypocrisy.  He's a genuine believer that he is the true King and the only thing standing between the Others and the destruction of the world, and thus he'll do anything to succeed.  In the book, he follows his principles and claims to be fair only so far as it suits him.

It's not character assassination.  Burning Shireen is absolutely true to his character as presented, and screaming "character assassination!" is basically on the level of some shipper getting mad at a showrunner because their preferred couple didn't end up together.  You're too attached to an aspect of a story to look at the story as a whole.



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mornelithe said:
TheLastStarFighter said:
The same is fairly true about the Sansa rape. People say it didn't happen in the books but it did - just not to Sansa. Bad things mean so much more when they happen to someone you care about.

Yeah, and from what I hear, the rape in the books to Jeyne (Fake Arya), was quite a bit worse.

It was horrific.