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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Prediction: "Cartridges" will return for the Nintendo home console

64 through 256 GB mask rom cards the size of SD cards would be awesome. Even 64 GB would still be more than BD and it's old enough vs 128 and 256 that it's essentially thow away cost wise. 64 GB flash retail is what $20, mask ROM wouldn't even be 1/4 of that. Most of the "cost" of flash memory is profit and the convenience and novelty of reuseable high capacity storage to the consumer; NAND is literally the easiest thing to make in terms of silicon production, and mask ROM is way cheaper still.

Mechanical media and its 15 day access time just needs to go away. This isn't 1950 anymore. Seriously who the #$%! uses magnetic tracks or 1979s music discs to read computer data anymore?

I'm just praying the next home media format for 4k is also something like a SD card. Vita sized cards and cases for 4k home video would be amazing.

I consider hard drives filthy and dinosaur technology, let alone optical. It's 2015 people, we don't use magnetic tracks to process computer data anymore.

PS the last desktop PC I built had 4 x toggle Nand tier 1 SSD drives in RAID 0 and my home LAN was 10 gigabit Infiniband.  I don't measure I/O in kilobytes or even megabytes per second anymore.  



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Only two problems. Developers are now incapable of releasing bug free software due to greedy publishers like EA and Activision that just want to rush something out for a quick holiday buck even if it's not ready. Profit now, maybe patch later if we feel like it is an industry standard now.

The same driving force behind that mentality will also fight with every last breath against a media format that doesn't allow their day zero DLC practices and selling avatar clothing for $10.

So there will still need to be some kind of local storage device.

Also keep in mind SD card type memory cards are serial and block access. They cannot be directly accessed by a CPU real time, which now days we are talking 64-512 bit buses and beyond (integrated GPUs etc) and multi GHz speeds. I don't know of any SD card that can provide nanosecond random access and 50+ GB/s.

This console will still need to operate the way a current system does, with lots of RAM to load assets into, treating any card formats as a block storage device just like any mechancial media, and a mass storage device for patches, OS updates, save games, parallel loading of data, etc so it won't truly be like old school cartrides that plugged right into the CPUs A/D lines.  

With todays speeds and voltages, with path lengths and stuff being so tight due to capacitance, cross talk, clock skew, etc, I seriously doubt you could get away with a "real" cartridge format (eg: parallel CPU A/D lines in the cart slot).  Everything is going to a LVDS serial formats for this reason (SPI, SATA, PCI-E, HDMI, HT, QPI, etc).  A CPU at 3 GHz you could have glitches if the cart wasn't inserted with quite the same exact force and distance side to side.  Ever see those tiny squiggly traces on a modern PCB to keep the traces equal length? It's that sensitive.  Just getting signals to arrive at the same time in different parts of a 1 cm square silicon chip is a science all by itself, let alone through some large rugged exposed cartridge port that somebody has handled with sticky fingers.

 

<-very experienced low level software programmer with some basic hardware knowledge including FPGAs, VHDL, etc.

This is for my fellow SNES lovers:

lda #$00
pha
pld
lda #$07
sta $2105
nop



That baiting title... SD cards, yes. Cartidges in the classical sense, no. Notice how Cartidge isnt the same as card.



Gosh, that may be true, but it seems like another backwards decision for Nintendo. Like how the GameCube or Wii could NOT be used as a CD/DVD player.

With everything going digital - even Grand Theft Auto V PC sales were 3 out of 4 digital. And is GameStop cutting half of their gaming business and becoming a tablet/mobile store. Just seems like another disconnect and makes me ask why.



 

Really not sure I see any point of Consol over PC's since Kinect, Wii and other alternative ways to play have been abandoned. 

Top 50 'most fun' game list coming soon!

 

Tell me a funny joke!

Zappykins said:
Gosh, that may be true, but it seems like another backwards decision for Nintendo. Like how the GameCube or Wii could NOT be used as a CD/DVD player.

With everything going digital - even Grand Theft Auto V PC sales were 3 out of 4 digital. And is GameStop cutting half of their gaming business and becoming a tablet/mobile store. Just seems like another disconnect and makes me ask why.


Some of us demand it.  Computers are too fast and data is too large.  Mechanical media cannot keep up.  It never has.  Solid state was always how it should be.  Don't know why we transitioned to primitive shitty magnetic and optical rotating track storage to begin with.  That shit was barbaric in the 1950s.  Read/Write heads have no place in the 21st century.

I want even the next home video 4k format to be some kind of card.  I imagine of library of BD or DVD cases and think what if they were all like Vita cards/cases.



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I don't think they should do this

They lose out so much cause they try to be so different
To a certain degree being different is good and doing and innovate stuff is even better but going against the norm in perfectly fine things is not.
Yes Nintendo doesn't have 3rd Party Support anyway but im pretty sure the "Fusion""NX" or whatever isn't made to be dead last place again.They want to battle for Top which is only possible with 3rd party support and such decisions would drive them even further away if this is possible at all.

What they need to do is establish some general things.
A Network which isn't worse than the one the Dreamcast had,go with PC-like architecture and go with Blu-Ray for physical medium.And if possible don't try to be special with weird gamepads that annoy developers.

Everything out of that is for them to go crazy and innovate.



I believe in the Fusion idea, I think it's the way Nintendo should go, and cartriges really seem to be the way to go if they follow the Fusion. However, I'm a bit wary of people just struggling to accept that home console games are being made on SD cards, and just ignore the home console part. Also, I'm sure that route would lead to a lot of ways to piracy, just like the DS (R4 cards).



You know it deserves the GOTY.

Come join The 2018 Obscure Game Monthly Review Thread.

I want a cart hybrid that gives u read only and write space.

So 64gb for games and maybe 32gb for write, that way the stupid save files and game patches and DLC can go on that cart and you can play it on any console.

It would solve the HDD space issue also and having to backup all that junk.

It would also solve the need to install a buggy game straight away to download the patches in ensure you have them before they are taken down from the server.



 

 

Arkaign said:
Okay people : a quick lesson for those who are somewhat uninformed on the subject of what makes cartridges tick!

(1)- I see a lot of people try to equate cost by using SD or other flash memory media as a reference point. This is exceedingly inaccurate, because flash memory is inherently different than :

(2)- Mask Roms. This is what read-only mass-produced games are normally placed on with regards to video game console carts, be they old home consoles or handhelds. The process goes like this :

First, the games exist entirely in a dev system on a hard drive.
Then, the early prototypes are put onto EEPROM or other reprogrammable storage and tested on the target console or device
Last, when the greenlight is given, a mask rom master is made, and the entire run of carts is created using photo-lithography

Mask Roms are exceedingly cheap by volume. The master is very expensive to create compared to a single SD card or the like, but the further copies are minimal. Thing of it in simplified terms of an engraved plate that is used over and over on cheap regular paper to create high-quality prints.

Whereas a 32GB or 64GB SD re-writable media might cost in the $$ range, a mask rom product in a medium-yield mid-size production number event is in the pennies range instead. The PCB and cart package itself along with the label and box easily equals the cost of the mask rom, or exceeds it. The other big advantage to mask rom products is durability. Where an EEPROM or flash memory device by nature degrades over time in a fairly aggressive manner by comparison, a mask rom can expect a very long lifespan, and a much tougher resistance to heat/cold/humidity conditions. As a non-rewritable etched piece of matter, it's non-volatile in nature. Its zeros and ones are hard engraved forever, or as long as the physical materials it exists on stays cohesive. In the right conditions, its entirely feasible that a mask-rom in it's little surface-mount package could exist for hundreds or even thousands of years. The other components on the cart assembly would degrade more rapidly. Plastic by oxidation, metallic contacts by rust, paper and ink on the label chemically unbonding and being leeched by humidity, etc.

The reason that CD and then DVD replaced carts wasn't purely cost, it was technology itself. Technology has moved a long, LONG way since those optical standards were created. A return to carts for a physical media is actually pretty nice as an idea. Load times could be hugely improved, capacity would exceed non-specialty BD discs, and size (think a DS cart size) would be more convenient than a 5.25" or even Gamecube-size optical disc.

Kudos for your post!

Some little additions (not just to your post but also other posts here):

1. Cartridges got replaced by optical discs not because of the costs (there was an advantage for optical discs, but as you explained, it's not that big), but because of the capacity of cartridges by the time. At the launch of the Nintendo 64, the Gamepaks could hold up to 12 MB, compared to the 650MB of a CD-ROM. Due to miniaturisation Nintendo later achieved up to 64MB, which is still just 1/10th of an optical disc at the time. In theory, it would have been possible to add even more space, but that would have made the costs rise expansionally as this would have needed bigger masks and thus less could be made per wafer (in general chips get paid per wafer, so the smaller the chips the more chips there are on a wafer and the less expensive it gets in the end).

2. While the memory itself wouldn't be much more expensive to produce, the packaging of cartridges on the other hand is much more expansive and time-consuming than just engraving an optical disc with it's data. How much depends heavely on the format (classic cartridges or more something like SD cards, for example) and machinery involved, but it's more expensive nontheless any which way.

3. Cartridges would have an additional advantage I didn't see getting mentioned yet: You can add some flash memory to save your games or some user-made content on them (like maps in Mario Maker or Smash Bros), transferring them to friends without having to take the whole console with you

4. Some do fear for backwards compability, but considering that Nintendo will be obliged to change the hardware basis anyway (IBM processors have moved completly into the High Power Computing direction for big Servers, which ist wholefully incompatible with the needs of a videogame console - and probably forced Nintendo to reuse the same basic chip technology as in the 2 consoles before again), I doubt there will be backwards compatibility anyway for Wii U optical discs. They might get emulated if the hardware of the next console is strong enough, but even then I suppose that would only apply over the eShop.

5. The ROMs don't mean you can't update games. After all, games on Wii U NODs (Nintendo Optical Discs) can also be updated, the updates being saved on the flash drive or attached hard drive. Heck, if you include enough Flash memory on the cartridge, you could possibly even save the updates on the cartridge itself (see point 3)



I think it would be cool if Nintendo wii use SD cards for next consoles.