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Forums - Politics - Gay rights...round 3

Dusk on 08 May 2015
reggin_bolas said:

Note to moderation team: A friendly, calm, and respectful discussion about the origins of the so called gay rights with a special focus on marriage. The thread is void of any reference to hate speech. 

I'd just like to know where these so called gay rights stem from. It's not human rights. It does not follow that a man should be free from harassment (a human right) and also have a right to marry whomever he wants. This is the essential doctrine of gay rights (in my opinion). It seems to go from everyone's right to be free of harm to everyone's right to marry - a strange leap of faith. There is no such legal right to marry. It's a privilege with attached conditions and necessary exclusions. 

So what's the justification for allowing same-sex marriage? Equality doesn't cut it because there is no such thing as absolute, unqualified legal equality. The law is full of exceptions that are essentially discrimminatory. In the USA,  a man can be refused employment as a dressing room minitor at a female clothing store. A black man can be denied casting as a historically white character in a movie production. 

You know I did some searching on the origins of marraige and could not find a single common denominator. Throughout history, cultures have attached different conditions and different meanings to the union. Well, except one thing that was universal, namely marriage has always been between a man and a woman. Marriage may have changed but who married did not. That should say something about marriage between a man and a woman as a self-evident truth. 

Does this not mean that same-sex marriage is purely a political ideology? As such it can only be defensible under a relativist/social constructivist perspective. 

Please keep responses respectful. 

Got a question for you. Why not? You keep asking why, but why not? 

I don't know the origins of what you are talking able, but to me it makes no difference. 

What is so bad able guy marriage?





Gotta figure out how to set these up lol.

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ice on 08 May 2015
Mr.Playstation said:
teigaga said:

Really like what? Marriage is ceremony with some legalities relating to the two invidividuals involved.

And Ireland having a referendum does not mean its relevant to everyone in a meaningful way, thats just a reflection of society and what society wants to see.

Yes it does mean it's relevant. At the end sequel marriage also wants same sex people raising children and being part of a family/normal society. Unfortunaley equel marriage has it's downfalls including:

 

1. Lower birth rate.

 

2. Children can never be properly cared after and given their real biological needs.

 

3. Starts to rub off on other people leading to point 1. There is a reason why there are more gay people ever since gay people started living more openly and no it's not because they have started saying the truth now because before thay would have been harassed.

I hope you're not serious...



Torillian on 08 May 2015

So the argument seems to be that you need a specific reason to give gay people the privilidge of marriage, and that without a good reason marriage should remain as it has been defined historically.

I think this argument misses the point of a free society. Freedom means that the default to a question of "can I ____?" is "sure" until we are given a logical reason as to why that particular action should not be allowed. Whether that reason is because it infringes on the rights of another (crimes such as murder) or its too detrimental to our society as a whole to be allowed. I would suggest that there is no logical reason in modern society that gay people should not be allowed to marry, and thus, under the concept of a free society, they should be allowed.



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TruckOSaurus on 08 May 2015

If you don't want a gay marriage, just don't marry a guy. There problem solved.



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JRPGfan on 08 May 2015

So what im getting is....

OP is against same sex marriages.
I think same sex should be able to marry (legally) if not chuch sanctioned (atleast).

Apart from the religious angle, theres really no reason why you wouldnt allow it.
Why shouldnt a gay couple or lesbian one, be allowed the the same rights as strait couples?

 

Torillian said:
I think this argument misses the point of a free society. Freedom means that the default to a question of "can I ____?" is "sure" until we are given a logical reason as to why that particular action should not be allowed. Whether that reason is because it infringes on the rights of another (crimes such as murder) or its too detrimental to our society as a whole to be allowed. I would suggest that there is no logical reason in modern society that gay people should not be allowed to marry, and thus, under the concept of a free society, they should be allowed.

^ so much this.



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gatito on 08 May 2015
Mr.Playstation said:
Tamron said:

Reduced birthrate? that's something we DESPERATELY need.

Yep we need it especially In first world countries where birth rate is already at an all time low. I don't think being gay even exists in third world countries.( In reality I don't know if you're being serious or sarcastic. If you're being sarcastic I agree, if you're not then the sentence outside of the brackets is your answer.)

Yeah that's really ignorant and provess how you can't even take part in this discussion when you only seem to be talking out of your ass.

And btw, less people giving birth could actually be a good thing, do you even know about the exponential growth of human population in the last century? We could be 9 billion people in less than 50 years and I doubt a bunch of gay people can stop that.



teigaga on 08 May 2015
Mr.Playstation said:
teigaga said:

Really like what? Marriage is ceremony with some legalities relating to the two invidividuals involved.

And Ireland having a referendum does not mean its relevant to everyone in a meaningful way, thats just a reflection of society and what society wants to see.

Yes it does mean it's relevant. At the end sequel marriage also wants same sex people raising children and being part of a family/normal society. Unfortunaley equel marriage has it's downfalls including:

 

1. Lower birth rate.

 

2. Children can never be properly cared after and given their real biological needs.

 

3. Starts to rub off on other people leading to point 1. There us a reason why there are more gay people ever since gay people started leaving more openly and no it's not because they have started saying the truth now because before that would have been harassed.


1. Marriage has nothing to do with birth rates and gay people exist regardless of whether they have freedom to get married or not.

2.This sounds like an argument against adoption or artificial insemination? Thats a different discussion from marriage rights.

3. There is no account for the amount of gay people in the world, you only have your assumptions which are probably largely effected by media or based on shallow judgements Also its pretty much garunteed that many who would have remained closeted in a overly homophobic world would find the cofidence to come out and live an honest life in an accepting society. You can't argue against, I know first hand. Anyway this point is making it seem as if a bigger gay minority would be a bad thing? How so?

Out of curiosity how many people do you know on first name basis who are gay, as in they've told you or they visibly have a same sex partner?

I get your overall narrative of your points and its labouring under the illusion that the world isn't vastly overpopulated, lower birth rates would infact help human population control and hopefully prevent natural disastsers  from having to do it for us. By your logic of looking out for mankind there should be more gay people in the world. Maybe then countries like china would stop stealing peoples kids from them or fining them for the number of offspring.



Dusk on 08 May 2015
reggin_bolas said:
Ka-pi96 said:
Volterra_90 said:
Ask yourself this question: if two men/women want to get married, why can't they? I don't think anyone can deny marriage to gay people based on... nothing. It's not like gay marriage is toxic or something like that, let them do what they want ;)

This.

This whole arguement is basically saying gay people shouldn't be able to marry... just because.

There is literally no good reason presented, simply because no good reason actually exists. So if there is no reason to prevent them getting married why stand in there way when there are plenty of good reasons for allowing it.


You have that backwards. The "just cuz" reasoning is more applicable to gay rights because there is still no strong epistemological reasoning behind it. It's a leap of faith that is politically coloured.  

Marriage is not a right. Point me to a credible source that speaks in favor of marriage as an unqualified and absolute equitable right. It's a privilege that privileges two individuals, historically a man and a woman, against those outside the union. Example, the sexual monopoly of both. An outsider having no sexual claims to either the man or the wife. That's a privilege, not a right. 

 

 

 

 

So then by that logic, since it's a privilege, to keep with equality and not to discriminate, marriage should be abolished. I guess that solves your issue right?





Gotta figure out how to set these up lol.

TruckOSaurus on 08 May 2015
gatito said:
Mr.Playstation said:

Yep we need it especially In first world countries where birth rate is already at an all time low. I don't think being gay even exists in third world countries.( In reality I don't know if you're being serious or sarcastic. If you're being sarcastic I agree, if you're not then the sentence outside of the brackets is your answer.)

Yeah that's really ignorant and provess how you can't even take part in this discussion when you only seem to be talking out of your ass.

And btw, less people giving birth could actually be a good thing, do you even know about the exponential growth of human population in the last century? We could be 9 billion people in less than 50 years and I doubt a bunch of gay people can stop that.

That's because you don't know about Phase 2 of our Master Plan.



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Mr.Playstation on 08 May 2015
Ka-pi96 said:
Mr.Playstation said:

Yes it does mean it's relevant. Unfortunaley equel marriage has it's downfalls including:

1. Lower birth rate.

2. Children can never be properly cared after and given their real biological needs.

3. Starts to rub off on other people leading to point 1. There us a reason why there are more gay people ever since gay people started leaving more openly and no it's not because they have started saying the truth now because before that would have been harassed.

1. For one thing gay marriage is already allowed in many countries and the birth rate hasn't really dropped has it? So that doesn't really work as an argument. Besides less people having their own kids and instead adopting those that either lost their parents or weren't wanted their parents also isn't a bad thing. Kids need parents and it doesn't really matter whether their parents are biological or not.

2. How can they not properly be cared for? How are gay people inherently worst parents than straight people? They aren't! There's probably some bad gay parents out there, but I can assure you there are many many many much worse straight parents. Straight people aren't automatically good parents and gays aren't automatically bad.

3. So? If people want to be gay then let them.

 

I do not wish to fight this opinion. In my OG comment I said Same-sex marriage should be allowed but it should also be kept under check, because it does indeed have it repercussions. If people want to be gay fine by me and at the end of the day I don't really care what you do in your bedroom, but stating that it's none of the generals public ( non-gays ) business is really not true as at the end of the day this is a wake up call for society.

 

I also want to explain on point 2 though. If you actually believe that a mother and father can be replaced with a mother and a mother or a father and a father, you should know that raising a child requires more than just love.



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