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Forums - General Discussion - Please Convince Me The Earth Is Moving And Not At The Center Of The Universe

globalisateur said:
Teddy said:


How can you be sure? What if there are other universes outside of our own and they exhibit a pull on ours gravitationally speaking could be the source of dark energy/matter. The earth isn't infinite, the solar system isn't, galaxies aren't. The universe could be a colossal size but not infinite and still expanding up to a point and then may contract back and rebigbang again. Science say they have found 5 of these echos of big bangs happening the the past. Link be somewhere on Google if you search for echos of previous big bangs. Besides many scientists consider infinite speed not possible. C = speed of light fastest possible speed.

The whole (infinite) Universe I am talking about already contains all others Universes by definition (those that are outside our known Big bang Universe) .



I am fine with that but what about the infinite speed belief? That's not based on any science, point me in that way or explain further your belief. If infinite speed was possible, you'd be everywhere at once at the same time. Then again I am thinking isn't this what they say about quantum mechanics you can be everywhere in the universe at once until locked down by observation to location such as where we are now earth as there are so many observers now. So is the question are we infinite beings everywhere at once until observation makes us go through on of the infinite slits the the experiment like light particle photon in double slit when observed goes through one but when not observed goes through both at the same time like a  wave. As Sheldon Cooper would say "it's a wave" of course the opposite is true that we are not moving at all nor travelling at speed for that would be impossible but a series of static photos that look like movement.



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OoSnap said:

-SNIP-


too bad your bible is not the original bible, if your bible is still the original one then there will be no contradiction with science, you will find the original one already inside Holly Qur'an. and Holly Qur'an don't have any contradiction with scientific "fact".



ethomaz said:
It is not because I'm the center of universe... everything moves around me.

I already disproven that because it moves around me while I'm stationary.



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the-pi-guy said:
OoSnap said:

And by the way, the geocentric view, I believe,  was believed by the ancient Jews. 

The geocentric view was the dominant theory for a very long time.  Not just Jews, but Greeks, and Christians.  
At the time, it was the only view that made sense.  If the Earth was in motion, couldn't we feel it?  

The reality is, is that we would feel the same regardless of what planet or moon we were on.  This is because of momentum, we can't feel momentum.  We feel force.  As long as the force is zero, the momentum is constant and we feel nothing.  So for example if you're in a helicopter and you fly up 1000 mph, the helicopter still has the Earth's momentum, the only force is the upward one, not the one going in circles.  The helicopter is still going around the Earth at the same speed it is spinning.  The same thing happens if you were to gently throw a ball up in the air while in a car.  The ball has the car's momentum along with the Earth's momentum.  

The geocentric view isn't perfect in explaining everything we can see in the solar system and neither was the original heliocentric view.  

The geocentric view used a few math devices to try to fix its mistakes.  One such example is the eccentric.  Ptolemy used an eccentric, which is the idea that the planets don't quite revolve around the Earth but some random spot right next to it to try to explain some occurrences.  There was also the epicycle on the deferent, which was kind of the planets revolved around the Earth in large circle.  Etc,  not important.  

Some complications were required for the apparent retrograde motion of the planets.  

Kepler and Newton were what really fixed the Copernican view.  

Both of which were Christians.   

I don't think there is much point explaining, I think the point of this thread is to hope a few ignorant non-theists click on a few of the links and listen to what sound like sensible logical explanations refuting complex science that they don't currently understand. The best thing to do unfortunately is lock the thread or not post so it dissapears into the internets own version of the aether.



HigHurtenflurst said:

I don't think there is much point explaining, I think the point of this thread is to hope a few ignorant non-theists click on a few of the links and listen to what sound like sensible logical explanations refuting complex science that they don't currently understand. The best thing to do unfortunately is lock the thread or not post so it dissapears into the internets own version of the aether.


Bullshit. That's the worst thing to do, there's absolutely nothing wrong with alternative points of view.

 

In fact, I applaud OoSnap for at least taking all modern theories of science with a grain of salt.  I've always seen Science as sloppy because nothing in itself is absolute, just close to certain.  There's literally paradox at every corner and competing theories for EVERYTHING.  I'm not a bible humper and don't go to church, but I do find merit in challenging modern conceptions especially in this day and age where everythings seemingly done with an agenda or to make a quick buck.  

The worst he does here is offer another point of view on a subject we were all taught growing up. This kind of critical thinking challenges what the majority of us percieve. There's nothing wrong with that at all and I can't believe you're so quick to ridicule something that you clearly haven't looked into personally.

 

Information is never ever a bad thing and I'd rather sit here and observe what he has to say before making a judgement based on what I've been told by OTHER strangers.  Fact is we as humans can't prove or disprove shit. You only have your own reality to go off of and that's as far as it goes. I'm interested to hear all sorts of points of view so this thread certainly has merit.



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The Earth is flat too.



Read up on Foucault's pendulum.

Proof earth rotates.

And unless you think the mars rover is a big consiracy, there's your proof the heliocentric model, with our understanding of gravity and orbital mechanics, is the correct once.



The only scientific evidence I can find the Earth is spinning is Foucault's Pendulum but that can be accounted for in a geocentric model: 

"If one rotates the shell relative to the fixed stars about an axis going through its center, a Coriolis force arises in the interior of the shell, that is, the plane of a Foucault pendulum is dragged around" - Albert Einstein, cited in "Gravitation", Misner Thorne and Wheeler pp. 544-545. 

"...Thus we may return to Ptolemy's point of view of a 'motionless earth'...One has to show that the transformed metric can be regarded as produced according to Einstein's field equations, by distant rotating masses. This has been done by Thirring. He calculated a field due to a rotating, hollow, thick-walled sphere and proved that inside the cavity it behaved as though there were centrifugal and other inertial forces usually attributed to absolute space. Thus from Einstein's point of view, Ptolemy and Corpenicus are equally right." - Max Born, "Einstein's Theory of Relativity", Dover Publications, 1962, pp 344 & 345. 

A June 25, 1913 letter from Einstein to Ernst Mach* concerning such forces from a relativistic point of view: 

"[Y]our happy investigations on the foundations of mechanics, Planck's unjustified criticism notwithstanding, will receive brilliant confirmation. For it necessarily turns out that inertia originates in a kind of interaction between bodies, quite in the sense of your considerations on Newton's pail experiment. The first consequence is on p. 6 of my paper. The following additional points emerge:*(1) If one accelerates a heavy shell of matter S, then a mass enclosed by that shell experiences an accelerative force. (2) If one rotates the shell relative to the fixed stars about an axis going through its center, a Coriolis force arises in the interior of the shell, that is, the plane of a Foucault pendulum is dragged around.

*In the Ptolemaic system, the earth is considered to be at rest and without rotation in the center of the universe, while the sun, other planets and fixed stars rotate around the earth. In relational mechanics this rotation of distant matter yields the force ... Now the gravitational attraction of the sun is balanced by a real gravitational centrifugal force due to the annual rotation of distant masses around the earth (with a component having a period of one year). In this way the earth can remain at rest and at an essentially constant distance from the sun. The diurnal rotation of distant masses around the earth (with a period of one day) yields a real gravitational centrifugal force flattening the earth at the poles. Foucault’s pendulum is explained by a real Coriolis force acting on moving masses over the earth’s surface ...The effect of this force will be to keep the plane of oscillation of the pendulum rotating together with the fixed stars. 

- Andre K. T. Assis, professor of physics at the University of Campinas - UNICAMP, in Brazil) Relational Mechanics, pp. 190-191 



I have altered the OP to make more "clean".



Teddy said:
Nem said:

Hmm... let see. Have you noticed how we have days and its day during half of it and dark during the other?

Theres only 2 choices. The sun goes around the earth on a daily basis, or the earth rotates. The Sun is thousands of times bigger than the earth. It would break all rules of gravity, under wich you keep your feet in the ground. The earth obviously moves around it. 

How is this a question? Its a proven fact and its incredibly easy to verify yourself. 


What about the moon, do you believe that goes around earth or the sun or around earth and sun?

 

Well turns out the moon doesn't go around the Earth but rather the moon and earth do a dance together like a waltz with the earth being like the heavier man and the moon being the lighter woman, in this case they revolve around a centre which just happens to be close to the earth because the earth is so massive compared but the moon is not revolving around the centre of the earth, I think it is a centre which happens to be somewhere under the crust of the earth which maybe why the moon can make earthquakes happen on earth although some scientists will not believe that but at the same time make a case for moonquakes happening due to earth's gravitational force which is somewhat hypocritical of them.

So as the earth 'goes around the sun'(or not) in this case it is not the earth going around the sun it is the epicentre of moon the gravational forces of earth plus moon which rotates and therefore earth is doing a little dance with the moon around the sun bobing backward and forward through the epicentre as it does. Therefore applying this theory to sun then the earth is doing a little dance with its giant massive sun partner as they revolve around the milkyway and thus making minute fluctuations in the sun's orbit around Milky way, this becomes more complex when you realise the other planets are getting in on your massive dancing partner(she is a big girl after all) and they are dancing with her and the Waltz dance with the sun is ever so complex as it now includes all planets pulling on it massive partner with planets such as Jupiter and Saturn influencing  the sun more so than our earth. Those planets could well be influencing sun's a activity as well as its orbit. Gets more complex when you realise the masses of other suns(stars) pulling on our sun and so on. The system is a complex one then as you'll realise when the butterfly flaps his wings the same for the planets and indeed far far far away stars and planets are influencing us with their far reaching gravity, gravity has an infinite reach.


Of course they are in a waltz, the whole solar system is, the whole galaxy is. Everything is revolving around a larger celestial body or going in the direction of one. The universe isnt static. Right now our whole galaxy is moving. The drawing wich show you planets and moons going on a perfect circle are meant to let you understand it better. Everything is always in constant movement. And while it is accurate that they revolve around the planet or the star, they are also constantly moving in a different axis.

The moon's orbit beeing centered in something like the mantle is not suprising. The moon has been been getting farther from the earth with time to the point it will be lost to space one day. Maybe it will become a new planet if its orbit stabilises. The earth orbital force just isnt enough to keep it within reach.

And no, the earth does not revolve in a center point. The Earth is in the outer arms of the milky way. The earth revolves around the Sun and the Sun revolves around the massive gravitational force in the middle of the galaxy believed to be a super massive black hole. That is the only point you could make a case on, but the galaxy itself is moving aswell so even that isnt the case.

There is absolutely no way that the earth is standing still, wich makes it impossible for it to be in the center of the universe unless they whole universe moved in the same proportion with it, and i dont see how that could even be possible without some magical/god like beeing that is far from beeing proven as something real. And really, i can garantee to you that nothing that convenient exists. We are not special, the earth is not special. There are millions of earths across the universe and no reason to believe our is special. Our own earth will be destroyed in time. Humanity probably extinguished unless we discover nuclear fusion and can achieve interstellar travel. There is nothing so gentle as a special place and a special existance. Thats just how it is.

Its worth noting that the solar system is supposidly parallel to the center of the galaxy and that is why we cant look at the center of the milky way.