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Forums - General - Ben Stein to take on Darwinism on April 18

timmytomthegreat said:
The_vagabond7 said:
I was going to write this long thing showing what a ridiculous pile of nonsense what timmy just posted is, but that would almost certainly be a waste of time. Instead I will just ask one question.

You can always figure out if a person if basing what they say on reason or indoctrination with one question.

What would it take to change your mind? What evidence or proof would actually make you think what you believe now is wrong?
Those are two good questions. I want proof that natural selection adds new information.
So if we show irrefutably that natural selection can result in "new information" (which you need to define for us) then you will say, "okay, in that case creationism must be wrong"?  Please be honest.  Yes/no answer please, you can add commentary after giving a yes/no answer. 

Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

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timmytomthegreat said:
Entroper said:
@timmytom, your article is simply wrong. There are several types of gene mutations; they do not always occur by exchanging a single nucleotide for another, or several for several others, or swapping, etc. Sometimes a string of nucleotides is accidentally repeated. Sometimes information from one chromosome is accidentally inserted into another. Either of these mutations can result in a longer nucleotide chain than the original.
How does that make new genetic information?

Genetic information is just nucleotide chains. Split the chains, tie them together in new ways, you've got new information.  If you started with just "ACGT", you could generate any arbitrary string by splitting, duplicating, and recombining elements.



Final-Fan said:
timmytomthegreat said:
The_vagabond7 said:
I was going to write this long thing showing what a ridiculous pile of nonsense what timmy just posted is, but that would almost certainly be a waste of time. Instead I will just ask one question.

You can always figure out if a person if basing what they say on reason or indoctrination with one question.

What would it take to change your mind? What evidence or proof would actually make you think what you believe now is wrong?
Those are two good questions. I want proof that natural selection adds new information.
So if we show irrefutably that natural selection can result in "new information" (which you need to define for us) then you will say, "okay, in that case creationism must be wrong"?  Please be honest.  Yes/no answer please, you can add commentary after giving a yes/no answer. 

 

And this is why it is dangerous to argue a topic when you are, at best, half-informed.

No evolutionist, no Darwinist, no neo-Darwinist, would argue that natural selection can add "new information" - it is the process of CHOOSING the information that is available. That was one of the problems with Darwin, was that there was no understanding of "information", which was later explained by genetics. No surprise then that Darwinian evolution (ie natural selection) was largely abandoned (though the concept of evolution embraced) by most scientists at the end of the 19th century in favor of Neo-Lammarckism and other ideas. It was the rediscovery of Mendel's work in the early 20th century that created the field of genetics, and it was genetics that primarily explained the way that information is passed on and mutated from one generation to the next. This filled in a big missing gap in evolution theory, and that allowed natural selection to be ressurected.

As for adding new information, it has been well explained by gene duplication, chromosomal alterations (translocation, polyploidy, etc), and endosymbiosis. At the same time, research into evo-devo has shown that small alterations of regulatory genes can result in drastic changes to an organism's body plan, without the need to add "extra" information.

 

 



Entroper said:
Rath said:

Carl Sagan, ardent evolutionist, admitted: '... mutations occur at random and are almost uniformly harmful—it is rare that a precision machine is improved by a random change in the instructions for making it.'

ARGH. Mutations degrade information is such complete and utter bullshit, mutations change information. Positively, negatively or more often with no effect at all. Evolution essentially discards negative mutation and spreads positive mutations throughout a population, thats how it works. Also Carl Sagan was an astronomer, not exactly qualified to say that.


I'm sure that Sagan knew what he was talking about, but like all junk-science hit jobs, was quoted out of context.  Note the use of the verb "admitted" -- was he being accused of something when he wrote it?  The answer, of course, is no:

http://science.howstuffworks.com/evolution5.htm

Large organisms such as human beings average about one mutation per ten gametes [a gamete is a sex cell, either sperm or egg] -- that is, there is a 10 percent chance that any given sperm or egg cell produced will have a new and inheritable change in the genetic instructions that make up the next generation. These mutations occur at random and are almost uniformly harmful -- it is rare that a precision machine is improved by a random change in the instructions for making it.

See how that quote sounds with a bit more context?  Yes, a mutation being advantageous is rare -- but when there is a 10 percent chance of a mutation occurring in every sperm or egg cell, and there are over one hundred million people born every year, there's an awful lot of mutation going on.


Even this is currently inaccurate, as I understand it. Hasn't it been demonstrated that most gene mutations end up being neutral?



ID proponents miss the most fundamental requirement of a good theory - it must make testable predictions (hypotheses). That is what made Darwin's theory so popular - it gave scientists, both pro-and anti-evolution, plenty of avenues of investigation.

Prediction by naturalistic evolution: There will be transitional fossils
Prediction by ID or creationism: There will not be tranisitional fossils. Or there will, if God wants there to be.
Test shows: Transitional fossils for every major group of organisms

Prediction by naturalistic evolution: If amphibians evolved from fish, there will be transitional fossils found in rocks between 300m-270m years old (based on the ages of the oldest amphibian fossils)
Prediction by ID or creationism: Such fossils, if they exist, could appear whenever and wherever God wanted them to.
Test shows: Transitional fossis found in rocks 280-285myo.

Prediction by naturalistic evolution: If Beetle A and Beetle B appear related, you should find a linking species (Beetle C) in an area between them
Prediction by ID or creationism: Beetle C will be where God puts it - if He even wants it to exist.
Test shows: Beetle C found between A and B.

Prediction by natural selection: Cleaning water supply should result in less harmful cholera bacteria.
Prediction by ID or creationism: Cholera is as virulent as God wishes
Test shows: Cleaning water supply dramatically reduces cholera virulence

Do you see the problem here? There is NO WAY to effectively test any God-centered explanation. It results in no research (as there is none going on in the so-called Discovery Institute). It solves no problems. It proposes no real answers.

Naturalistic evolution, on the other hand, is a robust field of research, constantly being tested and DEBATED by scientists doing real science all over the world, every day. And best of all, the whole thing can be falsified if just ONE creationist could find a 300 million year old bunny fossil.

Now, once you give me a test to falsify God's works, I will be willing to put naturalistic evolution and ID/creationism on equal footing.



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misterd said:
Final-Fan said:
timmytomthegreat said:
The_vagabond7 said:
I was going to write this long thing showing what a ridiculous pile of nonsense what timmy just posted is, but that would almost certainly be a waste of time. Instead I will just ask one question.

You can always figure out if a person if basing what they say on reason or indoctrination with one question.

What would it take to change your mind? What evidence or proof would actually make you think what you believe now is wrong?
Those are two good questions. I want proof that natural selection adds new information.
So if we show irrefutably that natural selection can result in "new information" (which you need to define for us) then you will say, "okay, in that case creationism must be wrong"? Please be honest. Yes/no answer please, you can add commentary after giving a yes/no answer.
And this is why it is dangerous to argue a topic when you are, at best, half-informed.

No evolutionist, no Darwinist, no neo-Darwinist, would argue that natural selection can add "new information" - it is the process of CHOOSING the information that is available. That was one of the problems with Darwin, was that there was no understanding of "information", which was later explained by genetics. No surprise then that Darwinian evolution (ie natural selection) was largely abandoned (though the concept of evolution embraced) by most scientists at the end of the 19th century in favor of Neo-Lammarckism and other ideas. It was the rediscovery of Mendel's work in the early 20th century that created the field of genetics, and it was genetics that primarily explained the way that information is passed on and mutated from one generation to the next. This filled in a big missing gap in evolution theory, and that allowed natural selection to be ressurected.

As for adding new information, it has been well explained by gene duplication, chromosomal alterations (translocation, polyploidy, etc), and endosymbiosis. At the same time, research into evo-devo has shown that small alterations of regulatory genes can result in drastic changes to an organism's body plan, without the need to add "extra" information.
Good catch.  I was conflating natural selection with the evolutionary processes in general. 

I ask one thing of you, misterd:  Please recognize that I am not half-informed, but rather half-asleep. 

And I ask one thing of you, timmytomthegreat:  will you accept that change in terms? 

Good night, everyone. 

Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

kenzomatic said:
Sense reffers to physiological methods of perception. You use that to interpret everything including science experiements.

Common sense based on a strict construction of the term, consists of what people in common would agree on: that which they "sense" (in common) as their common natural understanding.

Understanding reffering to the conclusions people draw. Conclusion are formed through reasonning, Reasonning icludes various forms of logic.

Logic is a piller of common sense, and thus your statement wrong and in need of clairification.

The problem being that common sense is often wrong and built on faulty logic. Most of my students believe crocodiles are green, that NY is warmer in the summer because we're closer to the sun, and that ice packs radiate cold energy. The entire reason that Mendel's work is significant (and served to launch the field of genetics) is that it completely defied common sense. Hell, the work of Copernicus, Galileo, Newton, Rutherford, and Einstein defied common sense too. 



misterd said:
Entroper said:
Rath said:

Carl Sagan, ardent evolutionist, admitted: '... mutations occur at random and are almost uniformly harmful—it is rare that a precision machine is improved by a random change in the instructions for making it.'

ARGH. Mutations degrade information is such complete and utter bullshit, mutations change information. Positively, negatively or more often with no effect at all. Evolution essentially discards negative mutation and spreads positive mutations throughout a population, thats how it works. Also Carl Sagan was an astronomer, not exactly qualified to say that.

I'm sure that Sagan knew what he was talking about, but like all junk-science hit jobs, was quoted out of context. Note the use of the verb "admitted" -- was he being accused of something when he wrote it? The answer, of course, is no:

http://science.howstuffworks.com/evolution5.htm
Large organisms such as human beings average about one mutation per ten gametes [a gamete is a sex cell, either sperm or egg] -- that is, there is a 10 percent chance that any given sperm or egg cell produced will have a new and inheritable change in the genetic instructions that make up the next generation. These mutations occur at random and are almost uniformly harmful -- it is rare that a precision machine is improved by a random change in the instructions for making it.

See how that quote sounds with a bit more context? Yes, a mutation being advantageous is rare -- but when there is a 10 percent chance of a mutation occurring in every sperm or egg cell, and there are over one hundred million people born every year, there's an awful lot of mutation going on.
Even this is currently inaccurate, as I understand it. Hasn't it been demonstrated that most gene mutations end up being neutral?
I presume that he meant "of the ones that have any effect at all", most are harmful. 

Or, if he didn't mean that, I'd wager it's true. 

OK.  Sleep for real now. 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Final-Fan said:
Good catch.  I was conflating natural selection with the evolutionary processes in general. 

I ask one thing of you, misterd:  Please recognize that I am not half-informed, but rather half-asleep. 

And I ask one thing of you, timmytomthegreat:  will you accept that change in terms? 

Good night, everyone. 

Sorry, I jumped into this late (both in terms of the debate and by my clock) and misread your post thinking you were the one asking for proof that there is a naturalistic method for adding new information. In that I apologize for saying you are half-informed; I meant TimmyTom (who could find these answers himself if he truly wanted to know the answers).



timmytomthegreat said:
 
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/re2/chapter5.asp

 

 Can you actually debate my post rather than just posting a link to a massive article?