Ben Stein to take on Darwinism on April 18

[Final-Fan]

misterd said:

Final-Fan said:

timmytomthegreat said:

The_vagabond7 said:
I was going to write this long thing showing what a ridiculous pile of nonsense what timmy just posted is, but that would almost certainly be a waste of time. Instead I will just ask one question.

You can always figure out if a person if basing what they say on reason or indoctrination with one question.

What would it take to change your mind? What evidence or proof would actually make you think what you believe now is wrong?

Those are two good questions. I want proof that natural selection adds new information.

So if we show irrefutably that natural selection can result in "new information" (which you need to define for us) then you will say, "okay, in that case creationism must be wrong"? Please be honest. Yes/no answer please, you can add commentary after giving a yes/no answer.

And this is why it is dangerous to argue a topic when you are, at best, half-informed.

No evolutionist, no Darwinist, no neo-Darwinist, would argue that natural selection can add "new information" - it is the process of CHOOSING the information that is available. That was one of the problems with Darwin, was that there was no understanding of "information", which was later explained by genetics. No surprise then that Darwinian evolution (ie natural selection) was largely abandoned (though the concept of evolution embraced) by most scientists at the end of the 19th century in favor of Neo-Lammarckism and other ideas. It was the rediscovery of Mendel's work in the early 20th century that created the field of genetics, and it was genetics that primarily explained the way that information is passed on and mutated from one generation to the next. This filled in a big missing gap in evolution theory, and that allowed natural selection to be ressurected.

As for adding new information, it has been well explained by gene duplication, chromosomal alterations (translocation, polyploidy, etc), and endosymbiosis. At the same time, research into evo-devo has shown that small alterations of regulatory genes can result in drastic changes to an organism's body plan, without the need to add "extra" information.

Good catch.  I was conflating natural selection with the evolutionary processes in general. 

I ask one thing of you, misterd:  Please recognize that I am not half-informed, but rather half-asleep. 

And I ask one thing of you, timmytomthegreat:  will you accept that change in terms? 

Good night, everyone.