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Forums - General - Ben Stein to take on Darwinism on April 18

rocketpig said:
 

The printing press is an invention, not science.


When I reference "true science", I mean science unhindered by outside influences.


All inventions is based on science. Also science always has outside influences as science needs time and money ; thus not very far from politics. Thus science really grew during WW2 when government was throwing money like mad at science. Even today a lot of our science is the result to invent weapons of war (get an advantage).



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Smidlee said:
Sqrl said:
 

The printing press is also considered to be a device that brought the religous text to the common man and removed some of the ability for corrupt priests and kings to warp its words as a means to control the people. Its not surprising that one of the greatest inventions during a time that religion was used to stifle science is an invention that allowed scienctists to overcome that stifling. It also allowed scientists to communicate and share ideas like never before which also had a profound effect in pushing things forward.


Then again because of science and techology now the government has the power to track and control even more people than ever. Even a King back then had the power that governments have today . It possible they had more freedom under a Monarchy than our Democracy today since a king could only do but so much. So now we have come a full circle.


We are far from full circile right now.

Now I'll admit technology is used in a lot of ways that I'd rather it not be but we are a long way off from people being beaten because they look at a Lord or Lady directly in the eyes.  We have our atrocities still no doubt, but we are far from the dark ages.

Just on freedoms alone we are vastly ahead of the dark ages, if you get into quality of life its not even a fair comparison.


I'd love to see the whole big brother concept die a horrible death, but if I had to choose between Big Brother and my current quality and style of living OR less big brother and dark ages quality and style of living...well that is a damn easy choice for me.

 



To Each Man, Responsibility
rocketpig said:
Smidlee said:
rocketpig said:
 

A


- The Spanish Inquisition says "hi".

- Religion controlled science during most of the Medieval period. Not surprisingly, it's one of the most dormant scientific times in human history, despite the fact that wars were abundant and everyone was in a battle of one sort or another. It wasn't until the Renaissance when the Catholic Church first starting seeing its stranglehold on the public loosen that we saw the emergence of true science.

- Did you seriously reference a video game as historical fact?

Can a game add in historical facts ? Yes it can.

Also I notice you said "True science". When it can to science even Spain ignore the Pope. Kind of like trying to stop people from pirating PC games as science offered too much to turn away from it.

Also one of the greatest invention of all time came about during this period which open the doors to a whole new world; The printing press. Even in Medieval times there were great leaps in knowledge as now finally man had an invention to make print easier and faster then ever before. Knowledge started to increase greatly after the printing press just as the internet/ cable/satellies open up new doors of information today. To say they didn't have "true science " when comparing to ours is like saying they didn't have "true weapons"(guns) when compared to ours.


The printing press is an invention, not science. My statement still holds true about Medieval times. Take astronomy, for example. Huge advances were made during Roman times and then very little happened until the Renaissance and Copernicus. The Medieval period was a black hole for the scientific community.

The Spanish Inquisition may not have been ordered by the Pope, but that's not what you said in your OP. You mentioned "the pope or anyone else" in reference to religious figures. The Spanish Inquisition was fueled by religious figures, was it not? Did they not constrain scientific figures and ban scientific texts?

When I reference "true science", I mean science unhindered by outside influences. If science was contrained by religion during Medieval times, it's hard to consider it "true science". Even many of the Renaissance scientific discoveries were hindered and challenged by a powerful religious state. It's only been in the last two centuries that we have seen a scientific community fueled by their own will and desire for knowledge.

Sure, you can use video games as reference but that doesn't mean it's correct, especially when you use it to try to prove that most scientific advancements happen during wartime. It's akin to using the movie The Day After Tomorrow to prove the science behind global warming.

 

It not even that scientific progress was slowed or stopped during medieval times.  Its that we went backwards hundreds of years.  The Greeks and Romans were far more advanced civilizations than anything up until the Renaissance.  We lost alot of knowledge during this time period.  Religion played a central role in this process.



Smidlee said:
rocketpig said:
 

The printing press is an invention, not science.


When I reference "true science", I mean science unhindered by outside influences.


All inventions is based on science. Also science always has outside influences as science needs time and money ; thus not very far from politics. Thus science really grew during WW2 when government was throwing money like mad at science. Even today a lot of our science is the result to invent weapons of war (get an advantage).


Stop cherry-picking my posts. That's the second time you've done it. What about the other points I made?

Technically, an invention is loosely related to science. But in the traditional sense, when someone mentions "science", they're talking about biology, astronomy, geology, any of the "ology" or "omy" words. After all, that is the latin root. If you want to start including inventions, you could use anything from the bow and arrow (physics, gravity) to the nuclear bomb (fission) to show "science". Advancements in science may have allowed the invention of the device (sometimes related to the actual creation of said weapon, eg. atomic weaponry) but the device itself is not "science".

Pray tell, what science was involved in the printing press? Ink? Levers? Pulleys? Paper processing? All things that man had mastered centuries previous to the press. It's a combination of other ideas, not science. 




Or check out my new webcomic: http://selfcentent.com/

Sqrl said:
Smidlee said:
Sqrl said:
 

The printing press is also considered to be a device that brought the religous text to the common man and removed some of the ability for corrupt priests and kings to warp its words as a means to control the people. Its not surprising that one of the greatest inventions during a time that religion was used to stifle science is an invention that allowed scienctists to overcome that stifling. It also allowed scientists to communicate and share ideas like never before which also had a profound effect in pushing things forward.


Then again because of science and techology now the government has the power to track and control even more people than ever. Even a King back then had the power that governments have today . It possible they had more freedom under a Monarchy than our Democracy today since a king could only do but so much. So now we have come a full circle.


We are far from full circile right now.

Now I'll admit technology is used in a lot of ways that I'd rather it not be but we are a long way off from people being beaten because they look at a Lord or Lady directly in the eyes. We have our atrocities still no doubt, but we are far from the dark ages.


 

 People of the future could just as easiler call the 20th century the "Dark ages" as we had two great World Wars. Now we got extremely powerful weapons so who know what this century will bring yet.

 



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rocketpig said:
Smidlee said:
rocketpig said:
 

The printing press is an invention, not science.


When I reference "true science", I mean science unhindered by outside influences.


All inventions is based on science. Also science always has outside influences as science needs time and money ; thus not very far from politics. Thus science really grew during WW2 when government was throwing money like mad at science. Even today a lot of our science is the result to invent weapons of war (get an advantage).


Stop cherry-picking my posts. That's the second time you've done it. What about the other points I made?

Technically, an invention is loosely related to science. But in the traditional sense, when someone mentions "science", they're talking about biology, astronomy, geology, any of the "ology" or "omy" words. After all, that is the latin root. If you want to start including inventions, you could use anything from the bow and arrow (physics, gravity) to the nuclear bomb (fission) to show "science". Advancements in science may have allowed the invention of the device (sometimes related to the actual creation of said weapon, eg. atomic weaponry) but the device itself is not "science".

Pray tell, what science was involved in the printing press? Ink? Levers? Pulleys? Paper processing? All things that man had mastered centuries previous to the press. It's a combination of other ideas, not science.

All these things seem so simple in our day yet they had to be invented.  So yes all this thing had  to be first discovered just like electricity had to be discovered before computers.

 



whatever said:

It not even that scientific progress was slowed or stopped during medieval times.  Its that we went backwards hundreds of years.  The Greeks and Romans were far more advanced civilizations than anything up until the Renaissance.  We lost alot of knowledge during this time period.  Religion played a central role in this process.


My point exactly. It's not a coincidence that during the period when religion held more sway over people than any other time in the past 2,500 years, scientific progress didn't only stop but it actually went in reverse for several hundred years. 




Or check out my new webcomic: http://selfcentent.com/

Final-Fan said:
Coca-Cola said:
I just read wikipedia - it's pretty predictable - people who are against creationism will hate the film and Christians and other creationist will love it. Thought it was interesting that they note the fact that there is a difference between intelligent design and creationism. I guess the movie is not about creationism but more for intelligent design.

A reporter named Moore saw the movie, sneaking into the screening impersonating a minister. haha

"The producers have since issued an "online media alert" lambasting the professional film critic for criticising the movie. They characterise Moore's review as a "security breech [sic]" and claim that Moore gained entry by impersonating a minister. In response to Moore's charge that the film's manipulation of Holocaust imagery is "despicable", Stein states that "The only thing I find despicable is when reporters sneak into screenings by pretending to be ministers. This is a new low even for liberal reporters."
Wikipedia lists dozens of objections to the accuracy, methodology, and tactics of the documentary makers, and your objections are:
1. LOL they hate us
2. reporter snuck in

I think we can see that you have no actual ability to refute the allegations of the Wikipedia article. I'm not taking their word as Gospel, but if even a fifth of the crap in there is true that documentary is trash.

If the movie is as bad as they claim we should be able to refute it based on our own knowledge or at worst with minor research.  I don't fear a different opinion so much that I would condemn it before hearing it based soley on the opinion of someone..or even several someones.  Especially if those people were people I didn't even know personally. 

Thats the tact I try to take on these things anyways...not that I always succeed but I try~



To Each Man, Responsibility
Smidlee said:
Sqrl said:

We are far from full circile right now.

Now I'll admit technology is used in a lot of ways that I'd rather it not be but we are a long way off from people being beaten because they look at a Lord or Lady directly in the eyes. We have our atrocities still no doubt, but we are far from the dark ages.


 

People of the future could just as easiler call the 20th century the "Dark ages" as we had two great World Wars. Now we got extremely powerful weapons so who know what this century will bring yet.

 

 

I'll be honest.....I have no idea what you just tried to say to me.

 



To Each Man, Responsibility
Smidlee said:
rocketpig said:
Smidlee said:
rocketpig said:
 

The printing press is an invention, not science.


When I reference "true science", I mean science unhindered by outside influences.


All inventions is based on science. Also science always has outside influences as science needs time and money ; thus not very far from politics. Thus science really grew during WW2 when government was throwing money like mad at science. Even today a lot of our science is the result to invent weapons of war (get an advantage).


Stop cherry-picking my posts. That's the second time you've done it. What about the other points I made?

Technically, an invention is loosely related to science. But in the traditional sense, when someone mentions "science", they're talking about biology, astronomy, geology, any of the "ology" or "omy" words. After all, that is the latin root. If you want to start including inventions, you could use anything from the bow and arrow (physics, gravity) to the nuclear bomb (fission) to show "science". Advancements in science may have allowed the invention of the device (sometimes related to the actual creation of said weapon, eg. atomic weaponry) but the device itself is not "science".

Pray tell, what science was involved in the printing press? Ink? Levers? Pulleys? Paper processing? All things that man had mastered centuries previous to the press. It's a combination of other ideas, not science.

All these things seem so simple in our day so yes all this thing had discovered just like electricity had to be discovered before computers.

So what? That has nothing to do with science. Explain to me why you think that the press was science.




Or check out my new webcomic: http://selfcentent.com/