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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Anyone else think Bioshock is over-rated?

Helios on 06 March 2008
twesterm said:
Smash_Brother said:
twesterm said:

FFVI has terrible (broken/unbalanced) gameplay yet it is considered by most as the best FF game and is on a good number of peoples top 10 list.

 

TB RPGs are the ostracized sex offender of the video game genre family, though.

All TB RPGs actually HAVE is story, so it's no surprise that people who play them overlook gameplay because they're playing for the story anyway.

Using it as an example when compared to a FPS RPG isn't a sound comparison. FPS RPGs are expected to have solid gameplay because otherwise the whole "FPS" part just makes zero sense.

For the record, I thought Bioshock was a great game, but it didn't blow the doors off storytelling or gameplay. I've seen both done better by the same group of devs.


 RPG's can actually have good gameplay, FFVI's just sucked because it was horribly unblanced and just not that good.

It's great that the game had 13 characters each with thier own story but not all those characters were equal.  Characters like Terra and Celes with their strong magic, Edgar with his good magic and insane tools, Sabin with his no drawback blitzes, and Locke with his super fast speed grossly overpowered characters like Strago, Gau, Relm, and the worst of all Cyan.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt9YmtT5PC0

Also... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYDBR7Cs06o&feature=related

Of course, I only mean to illustrate just how broken FF VI's battle system is (even for a JRPG). Still quite fun, though.

Seriously though, when it comes to integrating story and gameplay, FF VI is still one of the best games out there. The Opera scene is easily the most famous example, but everything from the interactive skirmish/battle scenes to how your party is broken up/reunited at the halfway point are things that just plain don't happen in the average game. I wonder, how does the 'option' of gathering your lost compatriots during the game's free-form finalé stack up to Bioshocks effort? In a sense it is different, since you can only do the 'right' thing in VI, but it is also not so different in how it presents the player with an effort-reward kind of choice.

As for Bioshock, I can't say much, since I've only played the demo. I can say I was let down when Mass Effect failed to live up to Bioware's promises, but I won't get into that. I guess I still believe developers are making progress in how they handle the narrative in videogames. But then, I'm the kind of guy that settles for Nintendo's clever references to their past games (Galaxy is golden in that regard) and usually just take the story as a 'good enough' excuse for the action. It doesn't really need to be more than that, unless the game actively sets out to do something more than entertain me.



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De85 on 06 March 2008
Smash_Brother said:
Onyxmeth said:

Secondly, videogame stories are horrific judging directly to other mediums like literature and films. I'm not actually sitting here thinking Bioshock is better than The Squid and the Whale, just that it's better than the crap most other games consider a narrative. Bioshock has a heavy advantage over many story driven games from the past, because the extra power of today's 360 and PCs allowed it to tell it's story better. The voice acting was terrific, the confrontations with adversaries were realistic and intimidating, and the themes, while being good for only VG standards were among the best.

 


I can agree that it's better than what we're used to, but the game just had such a weak finish that it was saddening.

The scene with Andrew Ryan was easily the best in the game, but I once again have to cite the fact that we weren't playing the scene, we watched it like a movie. In fact, we watched the whole game like a movie.

And here's why that kills me: the same people who made System Shock also made Deus Ex and Bioshock. I've seen what these people are capable of and as a result I can see where Bioshock was more than likely stripped down so it would be more easily swallowed by the console market.

And that really, REALLY sucks, and this is why I hate it when I see people praising it for the story when the story was only a shadow of what it could've been. There's no reason to play as a character who is a voiceless, nameless drone in a linear start-to-finish storyline when the team behind it was so clearly capable of creating an immersive, empowering story with a likable protagonist for the player to control.


 I personally think that the decision to leave the charcater nameless and faceless was done on purpose, and not just an oversight by the devs.  Given the philosophical and moral content, not just the snuff/save aspect, but Ryan's speech on how "a man chooses. a slave obeys" having a faceless character makes it more relateable.  It's supposed to make it feel like you're being taught by Andrew Ryan, and you should be in control of your destiny.   I think that if the cutscenes showed the player from a third person view the atmosphere of the game would have suffered.

 @ the OP, no I don't think it was overrated.  So far it's the best I've played this gen.



rocketpig on 06 March 2008
CaptainPrefrences said:
when i still had my 360, i dled this demo and i hated it.

but then again, it was only a demo.

Do you like shooters? I don't see how anyone could like shooters and not love the first 30 minutes of BioShock... Absolutely amazing, IMO. The game only let me down slightly in the second half but I don't have any complaints about the first half of the game, particularly the first hour or so.

Honestly, I don't really see how someone could like shooters and not the Bioshock demo.

BTW, this thread made me pop in BioShock again and just as I suspected, the first hour of the game is still just as fuckin' brilliant as it was the first time through. 




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d21lewis on 07 March 2008
twesterm said:
Slimebeast said:

PLEASE, NO SPOILERS!!

 

 


I can understand this type of comment when a game is still only a few months old and the game is still generally considered new but when the game has been out nearly 8 months you can't make comments like that anymore. That's like getting mad at someone for saying Snape kills Dumbledore or Vader is Lukes Father today.


 Vader is Luke's WHAT!?!



London_Calling on 07 March 2008

I would have to agree, didn't like Bioshock. Don't like Half Life 2 either.



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gebx on 07 March 2008

I don't undertand how people get into arguments over personal tastes..

Some think the game is great
Some think its overated
Some think its garbage

Pick one, state your case, but don't flame the person above you because his gaming tastes are different.



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Sansui on 07 March 2008

A lot of discussion about the philosphy behind the story and basis on Rand's work, as well as characterization and character development (or lack of, according to some people's opinions).

To me, most of the character growth was carried out through the tape recorders that told you the past story from all these different viewpoints. People CLEARLY changed dramatically as you found different copies of their recordings, and you got to know characters you never even meet in the story (unless you count some of the ghosts). It was like unraveling the mystery of a post-apocalytpic world.

Just because the 'living' characters like the main character or Ryan don't seem to evolve over the story, doesn't mean the game lacked in the character development department. I maintain that the storytelling methods in this game were superb and a refreshing change of pace from the usual archetypal character molds going through a journey of transformation or redemption or tragedy or whatever.

I notice no one has really talked about the game's artwork very much. I work as a designer, my degree was heavily art theory, and the art direction in Bioshock is also fantastic. There are few games that have created a world so complete, styled, and captivating as Rapture
rocketpig on 07 March 2008
Sansui said:
A lot of discussion about the philosphy behind the story and basis on Rand's work, as well as characterization and character development (or lack of, according to some people's opinions).

To me, most of the character growth was carried out through the tape recorders that told you the past story from all these different viewpoints. People CLEARLY changed dramatically as you found different copies of their recordings, and you got to know characters you never even meet in the story (unless you count some of the ghosts). It was like unraveling the mystery of a post-apocalytpic world.

Just because the 'living' characters like the main character or Ryan don't seem to evolve over the story, doesn't mean the game lacked in the character development department. I maintain that the storytelling methods in this game were superb and a refreshing change of pace from the usual archetypal character molds going through a journey of transformation or redemption or tragedy or whatever.

I notice no one has really talked about the game's artwork very much. I work as a designer, my degree was heavily art theory, and the art direction in Bioshock is also fantastic. There are few games that have created a world so complete, styled, and captivating as Rapture

While I haven't touched on the design of Rapture (I'm a designer myself) in this thread, I have raved about it in several threads in the past.

Simply put, I think Rapture is the most intelligent, thought-out, and well designed game world to ever hit the industry. The only competition I put in the same class is Fallout, though its cheekiness puts it a notch below Rapture IMO.

It's rare in any form of entertainment to see the world itself become the main character and driving force behind a story and IMO, Irrational/2K did just that with the design of Rapture. 




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Sqrl on 07 March 2008
twesterm said:
Sqrl said:
It was a good game no doubt, but not nearly the golden ray of gaming goodness some might have you believe. Honestly in most years it would have deserved GoTY but last year it was easily outclassed in just the nominations phase.

A lot of folks have said that the story was great and the gameplay was mediocre and when I hear that I keep thinking how can a game with mediocre gameplay be considered for GoTY? Personally I think both CoD4 and The Orange Box (as unfair as it is to group it) were far better in the genre and if you can't win best in breed you don't get a shot at best in show.

Just my 0.02 VG$~

FFVI has terrible (broken/unbalanced) gameplay yet it is considered by most as the best FF game and is on a good number of peoples top 10 list.


 I'm not sure what your point is....if people find the broken/unbalanced gameplay to be fun who cares if it is broken/unbalanced its still good gameplay as long as most find it fun, right?

Similarly here I'm sure some folks find the gameplay to be lots of fun, but it seems like most people think it is "mediocre".  Take that for what you will, but the rest of what I said was my opinion.  And honestly, I wish I could have rented it, it just wasn't worth a purchase without more replayability =P

Also keep in mind the difference between making Joe Random's top 10 list and earning a nomination for GoTY is quite a big difference.  Just about every game that is an 8+ is going to make a ton of top 10 lists of consumers but its mostly likely not going to even be considered for GoTY until you get to the 9+ region. 
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stof on 07 March 2008

I'm going to say that it is over rated, but that's only because I'm bitter over not having a chance to play what looks like such an awesome game. Mass Effect is over rated too. Until I get to play it, it sucks!



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