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Forums - Gaming - FACTS vs. FICTION – Volume 1

joesampson on 06 January 2015
johnlucas said:

OK. I got a lot of replies to send out so let's go down the line.
Starting with Torillian.

Torillian said:
The fact that the most powerful system in a generation has never won does not preclude it from happening in the future. You can make all the lists you want, but unless there's some iron clad reason that the most powerful console in a generation can't win then it's just an interesting little factoid.

Fact is that the current sales trends point towards PS4 winning this generation, and basing your predictions on what ifs and hopeful scenarios is a recipe for disaster.


That almost sounds good, Torillian. It's a plausible counter-argument.
But I could find fault with the "just because it never happened before doesn't mean it can't happen in the future" argument in the following statements.

 

Just because a man couldn't fly by just flapping his arms before doesn't mean that man can't fly by just flapping his arms in the future.

Just because men couldn't get pregnant before doesn't mean that men can't get pregnant in the future.

Just because all empires fell before doesn't mean all empires will fall in the future.

Just because people can't walk through walls today doesn't mean that people can't walk through walls tomorrow.

Just because the wheel shape is best for rolling now doesn't mean the box shape can't be best for rolling later.

 

There ARE some things that are IMPOSSIBLE.
Even though many things in life were once thought to be impossible & were proven NOT to be, doesn't mean that there are no impossible events.

I take you back to what I said under that Strongest Console NEVER Wins topic.
If it was all about power then THE PC, THE PERSONAL COMPUTER, would be the ONLY platform around. There would BE no consoles.
They don't put PC games behind the shelf or behind the shop counter like they do console games.
Many PC developers have migrated partially or entirely to consoles to make their games.

Yeah yeah I know you're gonna throw out that recent report about PC gaming being bigger than console gaming.
But if that's the case why can't PC games sell prominently in retail? Why have they gone virtually all-digital?
Why are PC game unit sales consistently lower than console game unit sales?
Why are PC developers like Bethesda, Infinity Ward, Crytek, BioWare, & the like not treating the PC as first priority in game releases?
Why aren't they porting to consoles? Why would they bother even making games on the consoles in the first place?
Why bother with consoles at all if PC's where the real money's at?
Why are PC gamers consistently complaining about PC versions of games getting gimped because of console parity?

The only reason that report happened the way it did is because ONE of the Three Console makers have underperformed.
That one being the BIGGEST one: Nintendo. And the cause of that underperformance: the Wii U.
As Wii U turns around it goes back to the normal hierarchy.

The VERY FACT that CONSOLES EVEN EXIST prove my point.
The Videogame Console should not exist today.
And they WOULD not exist today if it wasn't for Nintendo with the Famicom/NES in the 1980s.
PC's have been modded to use all the game controllers the consoles use.
PC's no longer are bound by that solitary one-person monitor now that we can hook a computer game display onto the TV set & gather around.
The prices of decent gaming rigs have come down considerably & are somewhat affordable.
So why do consoles still sell? Why?

The PC can do gaming & everything else you want. It is ALWAYS the most powerful platform available by default.
And it is the most customizable platform available by default.
Online is free & can be maintained by the players themselves for decades to come.
It is such a useful platform IN gaming & BEYOND gaming.
So why do consoles still sell? Why?

All that power means a hill of beans, that's why.
That's why those PC developers left the PC behind & thoughtlessly went to recreate a PC-like market on the consoles—specifically the ones with weak 1st parties that they could push around.
The only one who prominently sells PC games the old-fashioned way on a store shelf is Blizzard.
And EVEN THEY have put some of their games on console!
Blizzard is the only one who truly works from the PC as a market & sells by retail.

Another proof of what I say is the fact that one of the most consistenly high-selling console games last year & early this year was freakin' MINECRAFT!!
A game with blocky SNES/N64 style graphics. A port from PC that is the ANTITHESIS of hardware power.
Notch made his money solely by PC at first & STILL he went to the weaker consoles to make even more.
A low power game that makes EVEN MORE money on a lower-power platform.

POWER DOES NOT SELL CONSOLES.
And the PS4 is not winning this generation.

If the XBox One is able to make people forget about their E3 2013 fiasco IN A YEAR & overcomes the PS4 in America already, then PS4 is already in trouble.
When PS4 was outselling XBox One & Wii U COMBINED for months at a time & now has to fight for top sales spot in America, it's not a good sign for PS4.
ESPECIALLY when they don't have Japan on their side.

What I wrote isn't just a factoid, it's a FACT.
John Lucas

I'm sorry but this is one of the dumbest most illogical things I've ever read. I and many others called you out on this argument back in the unity thread and you're still espousing it. I feel you have trouble grasping the basics of statistical and logical thinking. Once again to explain it to you, first, correlation does not imply causation. In the past there have been correlating factors, (such as lower price, earlier launch, better marketing and business strategies) that have led stronger consoles to not be the market leader but simply being the strongest isn't directly the reason.

Second, even if there was some magical causation between stronger hardware and lesser sales, your sample size of SEVEN, wouldn't likely be sufficient to come to any conclusion. 

Also, the reason pc games don't do well at retail is because companies like valve have come up with superior distribution models PC gamers prefer and which we will likely see dominate consoles in the near future. 

i won't even address the other points itn OP because they are quite pointless, but I will ask you when you will admit/readjust your wii u predictions. Last I remember the wii u was supposed to have sold 30 million by now. Will you finally admit Nintendo never had a master plan and misfired this generation?



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Seece on 06 January 2015

Because numbers ARE an integral part of your theories/discussion (because you know, WiiU needs to sell more than PS4 to beat it). Are you going to give us some sort of guide for when WiiU will start outselling PS4??

You must understand it's not an acceptable answer to say "just wait and see" or "SOON"

WiiU is trending about 27m below what you thought it would be at right now, so have you adjusted your 260m WiiU prediction? Why is it going to go from 4m a year to 40m? (and last until beyond 2020, something no Nintendo system has done before.)

Also people don't buy consoles because they're powerful (something we all agree on). Then what is selling PS4 right now? And why will that change? The games are only going to get better/incresed. This does not correlate with lower sales but higher.



 

TruckOSaurus on 06 January 2015

I'll have to keep an eye on this thread so it doesn't morph into another UNITY.

As for the argument that power does not sell consoles, it's mostly right. Games sell consoles and Sony has proved 3 times over that their consoles offer games for everyone both from first party efforts and from 3rd parties. So unless you have a plausible reason for the PS4 not delivering on the games front, I believe your conclusions are very very wrong.



Signature goes here!

Seece on 06 January 2015
TruckOSaurus said:
I'll have to keep an eye on this thread so it doesn't morph into another UNITY.

As for the argument that power does not sell consoles, it's mostly right. Games sell consoles and Sony has proved 3 times over that their consoles offer games for everyone both from first party efforts and from 3rd parties. So unless you have a plausible reason for the PS4 not delivering on the games front, I believe your conclusions are very very wrong.

I don't think anyone wants that, but what we (the posters want) is to discuss how and why using logic and numbers WiiU is gonna be first/overtake PS4/sell 260 million, and what he wants to discuss are these reall weak reasons as to how (or so he thinks) WiiU can win.

The problem with that is as mummel so rightly put it, he counteracts with nonsense that is irrelevent and doesn't actually contribute to proving anything he says correct.

He has a go at people for using (actual) facts, figures, history and logic.



 

TruckOSaurus on 06 January 2015
Seece said:
TruckOSaurus said:
I'll have to keep an eye on this thread so it doesn't morph into another UNITY.

As for the argument that power does not sell consoles, it's mostly right. Games sell consoles and Sony has proved 3 times over that their consoles offer games for everyone both from first party efforts and from 3rd parties. So unless you have a plausible reason for the PS4 not delivering on the games front, I believe your conclusions are very very wrong.

I don't think anyone wants that, but what we (the posters want) is to discuss how and why using logic and numbers WiiU is gonna be first/overtake PS4/sell 260 million, and what he wants to discuss are these reall weak reasons as to how (or so he thinks) WiiU can win.

The problem with that is as mummel so rightly put it, he counteracts with nonsense that is irrelevent and doesn't actually contribute to proving anything he says correct.

He has a go at people for using (actual) facts, figures, history and logic.

I do hope the debate goes well but replies like this one (http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=6970063) don't inspire much faith in JohnLucas' desire to debate facts.



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Fight-the-Streets on 06 January 2015

"Just because people can't walk through walls today doesn't mean that people can't walk through walls tomorrow."

I don't care if people will laugh at me but the above quote is not true. Some very rare high-level masters could walk through walls in the past and even fewer can do it today and pobably tomorrow. I know a high-level master who could do it, in real, without magic tricks.

The reason why it is possible is because normal people are bound to our physical body but for a very high-level master, the body is not there anymore (tough still a reality and visible for the normal people) and his non-physical being can be anywhere and nowhere.

It is scientifically proofed that everything in our world, in the whole universe, lively or concrete, physical or non-physical, is made up by the very same atoms. In other words, I and my desk in front of me is one and the same, only our limited mind sees a difference but once you have surpassed this limit, there's no differentiation. If I am empty and the wall is empty, why should I not walk leisurely through it?

And what has the above to do with this thread or with Nintendo specifically? Think about it!;)



badgenome on 06 January 2015
Ka-pi96 said:

I have to ask but... high-level masters of what?

Of walking through walls, silly!



Fusioncode on 06 January 2015
Fight-the-Streets said:
"Just because people can't walk through walls today doesn't mean that people can't walk through walls tomorrow."

I don't care if people will laugh at me but the above quote is not true. Some very rare high-level masters could walk through walls in the past and even fewer can do it today and pobably tomorrow. I know a high-level master who could do it, in real, without magic tricks.

The reason why it is possible is because normal people are bound to our physical body but for a very high-level master, the body is not there anymore (tough still a reality and visible for the normal people) and his non-physical being can be anywhere and nowhere.

It is scientifically proofed that everything in our world, in the whole universe, lively or concrete, physical or non-physical, is made up by the very same atoms. In other words, I and my desk in front of me is one and the same, only our limited mind sees a difference but once you have surpassed this limit, there's no differentiation. If I am empty and the wall is empty, why should I not walk leisurely through it?

And what has the above to do with this thread or with Nintendo specifically? Think about it!;)

Hey look, a user who disappeared after the UNITY thread was locked and returned right when John Lucas made a new one.

I wonder why...



Sigs are dumb. And so are you!

MikeRox on 06 January 2015
Nogamez said:

Errr dreamcast was more powerful then ps2 when ps2 launched and n64 is definately considered powerfuller then psx then and now


How so? The specs of the PS2 weren't improved you know and the Dreamcast could never have run it's later software.

I will agree that many cross platform games looked better on Dreamccast when PS2 first released though (hey, I was a DC nutter! loved the thing).

MGS2 and Gran Turismo 3 clearly showed the extra horsepower under the PS2's hood though. Plus it played those new fangled DVD movies like The Matrix!



RIP Dad 25/11/51 - 13/12/13. You will be missed but never forgotten.

Nogamez on 06 January 2015
MikeRox said:
Nogamez said:

Errr dreamcast was more powerful then ps2 when ps2 launched and n64 is definately considered powerfuller then psx then and now


How so? The specs of the PS2 weren't improved you know and the Dreamcast could never have run it's later software.

I will agree that many cross platform games looked better on Dreamccast when PS2 first released though (hey, I was a DC nutter! loved the thing).

MGS2 and Gran Turismo 3 clearly showed the extra horsepower under the PS2's hood though. Plus it played those new fangled DVD movies like The Matrix!


If the dreamcast lasted more than 2years im sure its games would have improved too. Its specs were greater then ps2