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Forums - Gaming - The PS4 | Xbox One Benchmarks Thread

Just an aside, but with the touchpad on PS4, it really opens the door to console 4x games and stuff like the Sims, City, and Civ series to make an appearance. Heavy GPGPU compute could come in handy during computer turns and for processing tons of AI in non-FPS/TPS, non-action games.

I think the console market is ripe for that market, should someone be wise enough to go there, and follow it up with great marketing. Console gamers average age is higher than ever, and I think many would appreciate some deeper games.



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walsufnir said:
HoloDust said:
walsufnir said:


You don't need to post old news to reply to my post. If you read and understand what's in the text you took as a reply to me you would see that my post is still correct. There is no "unused" hardware in PS4 lying around, waiting to be used by GPGPU. It is the same hardware that is now doing rendering tasks.

Obviously I have to - if you actualy understood what is in the text, you would know what async compute is and how it runs in paralel with graphics tasks. Maybe you should re-read whole interview again bit more carefully.


Async compute is nothing new - CPUs do it all the time when context switching. But still you are going to use the same resources in rendering, as there is not much time to "context switch". All the time frames want to be rendered, where do you want to get the time for doing GPGPU with the same resources?

What they are mostly saying is that you can use the resources for rendering and GPGPU at the same time but if you do GPGPU then these resources do GPGPU and not rendering work. There is no duplicated hardware present.

As Nate4Drake already quoted:

"Cerny explained that there are many situations during game applications where functions pertaining to graphics take a backseat, and that the PS4 hardware has been designed to make the most of the under-utilized portions of the GPU during such frames.''

When will this be? In a graphical demanding game this will not likely happen. And when it does what do you want to compute then? A game has to be developed that "if close to nothing happens" to compute but what for?

PS4’s GPU is not only limited to handling the graphics but also complex processes which is traditionally handled by the CPU.

 

“We have worked hard to ensure that the console has a rich feature set, which will allow it to grow over the years and support the overall evolution of gaming. And our work there on that rich feature was to focus on making sure that for those teams that were interested in investing time, the GPU could be used for far more conventional graphics.

 

  Principally, we enhanced the GPU to make the use of asynchronous fine grained compute ----> practical on the platform. So the asynchronous refers to the GPU doing many tasks which is not directly related to graphics.”

 

He believes that the developers will be able to develop richer worlds if they are able to unlock the true potential of this feature set.

 

---> “Physics simulation, collision detection, ray casting for audio, decompression and the like. And these operations are fine grained meaning that there will be many small world simulation tasks running on the GPU simultaneously alongside rendering of the game scenes.

 

So the concept is that as game developers learn to use these techniques later on in the console life cycle, we will see richer and even more interactive worlds.”

http://gamingbolt.com/mark-cerny-explains-the-ps4s-gpu-can-perform-asynchronous-complex-processes

Now, we know this.

Experts have been working on this for a so long time, and there is a reason! 

For details, we should ask directly to people like Naughty Dog, and unfortunately I can't.

It will take time to take advantage of it, but it's coming, as Devs get more experience on the Hardware.



”Every great dream begins with a dreamer. Always remember, you have within you the strength, the patience, and the passion to reach for the stars to change the world.”

Harriet Tubman.

Machiavellian said:
HoloDust said:

Obviously I have to - if you actualy understood what is in the text, you would know what async compute is and how it runs in paralel with graphics tasks. Maybe you should re-read whole interview again bit more carefully.

You do know Async is not a magic bullet.  GPGPU and the GPU are fighting for the same resources.  Yes both can run at the same time but if resources are limited or there is a bottleneck in the process you might not see great gains or performance.   Here is a very important part of that interview that needs to be understood.

""The reason so many sources of compute work are needed is that it isn’t just game systems that will be using compute -- middleware will have a need for compute as well. And the middleware requests for work on the GPU will need to be properly blended with game requests, and then finally properly prioritized relative to the graphics on a moment-by-moment basis.""

 

Short statement but for the developer its a lot of work and would be very specific for each game.  Using GPGPU compute in parallel is not something that developers just code for it and it just works.  From the statement above, there is a lot of understanding of game state where you setting priorities on what get resources and when.  Scheduling those calls can be a real pain and syncing everything together probably is a nightmare unless you really need to go down that route for more gains in performance.  From this point of view, it definitely something that will need to be planned out way ahead of time and developers probably have to prototype some stuff first before wasting time in development if there are no real gains in performance. 


Of course it's not a magic bullet, nobody said it is - anybody half-literate in hardware can understand what PS4's architecture is all about and what Cerny designed.

And naturally that it requires effort and learning curve due to how it works - that's why Cerny said we'll be seeing this in 3rd or 4th year used more extensively.

That is the rason I'm suggesting to anyone who is interested more in this (and who might have certain urge to downplay this) to read that interview bit more carefully - that implies with understanding.



this was nice. thanks



Looking good, I'm excited to see how things play out as people start optomizing more for next-gen and finally ditch last gen!



                                                                                                               You're Gonna Carry That Weight.

Xbox One - PS4 - Wii U - PC

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HoloDust said:
Machiavellian said:
HoloDust said:

Obviously I have to - if you actualy understood what is in the text, you would know what async compute is and how it runs in paralel with graphics tasks. Maybe you should re-read whole interview again bit more carefully.

You do know Async is not a magic bullet.  GPGPU and the GPU are fighting for the same resources.  Yes both can run at the same time but if resources are limited or there is a bottleneck in the process you might not see great gains or performance.   Here is a very important part of that interview that needs to be understood.

""The reason so many sources of compute work are needed is that it isn’t just game systems that will be using compute -- middleware will have a need for compute as well. And the middleware requests for work on the GPU will need to be properly blended with game requests, and then finally properly prioritized relative to the graphics on a moment-by-moment basis.""

 

Short statement but for the developer its a lot of work and would be very specific for each game.  Using GPGPU compute in parallel is not something that developers just code for it and it just works.  From the statement above, there is a lot of understanding of game state where you setting priorities on what get resources and when.  Scheduling those calls can be a real pain and syncing everything together probably is a nightmare unless you really need to go down that route for more gains in performance.  From this point of view, it definitely something that will need to be planned out way ahead of time and developers probably have to prototype some stuff first before wasting time in development if there are no real gains in performance. 


Of course it's not a magic bullet, nobody said it is - anybody half-literate in hardware can understand what PS4's architecture is all about and what Cerny designed.

And naturally that it requires effort and learning curve due to how it works - that's why Cerny said we'll be seeing this in 3rd or 4th year used more extensively.

That is the rason I'm suggesting to anyone who is interested more in this (and who might have certain urge to downplay this) to read that interview bit more carefully - that implies with understanding.

You make it seem like Async is something big from your statement.  Designing something and getting real world results are 2 different things.  MS designed their ESRAM to be able to read and write at the same time but in real world scenerios, those situations are very limited.  The same can be true for being able to do GPU and GPGPU at the same time.  When and where are the scenerios going to be where you can do both at the same time to get real world benefit.

The interview is fine and I read it back in the day.  Just like with MS solution, I am looking more for real world examples and the same will be for Sony implementation.



Nate4Drake said:
AnthonyW86 said:
The most interesting thing of these benchmarks is that it shows that PS3's Cell cpu is in some cases more powerfull than PS4's cpu. No real surprise there, but i still think the should have gone for at least one or two faster core's in the PS4.

A six core with two faster cores is much more usable than eight slower cores.

Again, most of the power of PS3 Cell(SPEs) must be used to help the weak and Raw GPU(RSX) of PS3...

On the other hand, the very very powerful CUs of PS4 GPU can help sooo much the PS4 CPU, so what you are saying does not make much sense.

Let people with more understanding work for the Hardware. No offence.

Yeah i'm no expert and i know about Liverpool's ACE units and yes those will show there worth in the future. But what i meant was the limited per core performance of the PS4/X1 cpu's. Atleast PS3 hade one fast PPE, giving some proper performance in single threated applications, PS4 doesn't have that. Development of games like AC Unity already shows the cpu limitations, and having even just one or two faster core's makes development so much easier. It simply gives you higher maximum performance when needed.

I'm talking about a ''big/little'' concept. So for example one or two 3.2 ghz bulldozer cores with say for jaguar 1.6 ghz cores(jaguar cores can't be clocked that high), or any similair feasible combination. Maybe even two or four jaguar cores at say 2.4 ghz and the other at 1.2 ghz would have been more usable. Especially since some of these cores are used for OS and other system applications anyway. Even if the theoratical total performance of those eight jaguar cores at 1.6ghz is higher, having one or two faster cores is much more usable.

But again i'm no expert and i don't know if it was feasible combined with the gpu on one chip.



AnthonyW86 said:

Yeah i'm no expert and i know about Liverpool's ACE units and yes those will show there worth in the future. But what i meant was the limited per core performance of the PS4/X1 cpu's. Atleast PS3 hade one fast PPE, giving some proper performance in single threated applications, PS4 doesn't have that. Development of games like AC Unity already shows the cpu limitations, and having even just one or two faster core's makes development so much easier. It simply gives you higher maximum performance when needed.

I'm talking about a ''big/little'' concept. So for example one or two 3.2 ghz bulldozer cores with say for jaguar 1.6 ghz cores(jaguar cores can't be clocked that high), or any similair feasible combination. Maybe even two or four jaguar cores at say 2.4 ghz and the other at 1.2 ghz would have been more usable. Especially since some of these cores are used for OS and other system applications anyway. Even if the theoratical total performance of those eight jaguar cores at 1.6ghz is higher, having one or two faster cores is much more usable.

But again i'm no expert and i don't know if it was feasible combined with the gpu on one chip.

Heh, not sure if this adds anything to what you're talking about, but I did find it entertaining nonetheless



Machiavellian said:
HoloDust said:
Machiavellian said:
HoloDust said:

Obviously I have to - if you actualy understood what is in the text, you would know what async compute is and how it runs in paralel with graphics tasks. Maybe you should re-read whole interview again bit more carefully.

You do know Async is not a magic bullet.  GPGPU and the GPU are fighting for the same resources.  Yes both can run at the same time but if resources are limited or there is a bottleneck in the process you might not see great gains or performance.   Here is a very important part of that interview that needs to be understood.

""The reason so many sources of compute work are needed is that it isn’t just game systems that will be using compute -- middleware will have a need for compute as well. And the middleware requests for work on the GPU will need to be properly blended with game requests, and then finally properly prioritized relative to the graphics on a moment-by-moment basis.""

 

Short statement but for the developer its a lot of work and would be very specific for each game.  Using GPGPU compute in parallel is not something that developers just code for it and it just works.  From the statement above, there is a lot of understanding of game state where you setting priorities on what get resources and when.  Scheduling those calls can be a real pain and syncing everything together probably is a nightmare unless you really need to go down that route for more gains in performance.  From this point of view, it definitely something that will need to be planned out way ahead of time and developers probably have to prototype some stuff first before wasting time in development if there are no real gains in performance. 


Of course it's not a magic bullet, nobody said it is - anybody half-literate in hardware can understand what PS4's architecture is all about and what Cerny designed.

And naturally that it requires effort and learning curve due to how it works - that's why Cerny said we'll be seeing this in 3rd or 4th year used more extensively.

That is the rason I'm suggesting to anyone who is interested more in this (and who might have certain urge to downplay this) to read that interview bit more carefully - that implies with understanding.

You make it seem like Async is something big from your statement.  Designing something and getting real world results are 2 different things.  MS designed their ESRAM to be able to read and write at the same time but in real world scenerios, those situations are very limited.  The same can be true for being able to do GPU and GPGPU at the same time.  When and where are the scenerios going to be where you can do both at the same time to get real world benefit.

The interview is fine and I read it back in the day.  Just like with MS solution, I am looking more for real world examples and the same will be for Sony implementation.

Please, and come on, the ESRAM in the XBone is working fine or you would have games running at 640p-720p ! 

We are talking about other things here.   MS solution is due to a very slow DDR3 Ram, and it's already giving good results considering the X1 Architecture.



”Every great dream begins with a dreamer. Always remember, you have within you the strength, the patience, and the passion to reach for the stars to change the world.”

Harriet Tubman.

These benchmarks are good news for those looking to play DriveClub. They will be getting console leading GPU performance!