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Forums - Gaming - Shinen used 3D scanning and 1GB files per mesh in Fast Racing Neo

Since Shinen pointed sometime ago that they could be using tesselation on their next game(Fast Racing Neo) I thought that it was worth the try by asking them. Didndt get a yes or no for an answer, but at least got an interesting comment that might point to that possibility

https://twitter.com/ShinenGames/statuses/512491838012272641





Very interesting isnt it?
After reading this I wondered how would they preserve the models as intact as possible,texture compression has a limit of 6x and introduces artifacts and since we are talking about 1GB of storage per mesh the texture compression would not be enough since wii u has just 1GB of RAM for games, thats when I recalled that tesselation does some kind of geometry compression and so I decided if there could be a connection and in fact seems that way


Example
http://www.academia.edu/2696670/Displacement_Mapping
"
Domain surface and a scalar displacement map


One application of displacement mapping that will be looked at more closely is displaced subdivision surfaces (Lee et al, 2000). It is used for describing surface of highly detailed models that are generated by 3D scanning devices. This method greatlyreduces memory requirements for the model, as it requires only a relatively simpledomain surface and a scalar displacement map.


Tessellation
Most surfaces can be approximated with a large number of small polygons. This processof converting a 3D object to a collection of polygons is called tessellation.

4 DISPLACED SUBDIVISION SURFACES
As was said in the chapter 3.1, one reason for using displacement mapping is it’scompact representation. In this chapter we will look at a one very efficient way of doingit, displaced subdivision surfaces, which was introduced by Lee et al (2000).The idea of displaced subdivision surfaces is very simple. Basically it represents thedetailed surface as a scalar-valued displacement over a smooth domain surface.Example of displaced subdivision surface is illustrated in Figure 6

4.2 Benefits
Highly detailed polygon models, such as those generated by 3D scanning technologies,can be effectively modeled using only a domain surface and a displacement map.Memory requirements are smaller as a scalar valued displacement map requires vastlyless storage space than a vector valued polygon mesh
.Displacement subdivision surfaces are a convenient way for representing animation. It’smore efficient to calculate animation calculations on simple control mesh than on highlycomplex polygon mesh.Surface detail can be easily edited by modifying the scalar displacement value

5 ADAPTIVE VIEW DEPENDENT TESSELLATION
Previous chapter presented a compact way to model detailed surfaces that adapts to thesurface complexity. In this chapter another approach, adaptive view dependenttessellation of displacement maps (Doggett et Hirche, 2000), is presented. It is moredynamic and also suitable for hardware rendering.When software based methods are used a large number of triangles are required to present a displacement mapped surface. If hardware rendering pipeline could beextended to handle displacement maps as geometric primitives, it would offer significant savings in memory use. It would also lessen the transfer of vertex data fromthe CPU to the graphics processor, which easily becomes a bottleneck for hardware
"

And well, here is an example of how much you can reduce the memory requirements if you use tesselation with dispalcmeents



I also found that in 3D scanning is very common to use the STL(Standard Tessellation Language) and here are some documents and definitions


Here is an example application of STL
https://www.solidconcepts.com/news-releases/solid-concepts-inc-now-offers-3d-scanning-services/
"
Solid Concepts Inc. Now Offers 3D Scanning Services
Solid Concepts’ 3D scanning technology is known as laser triangulation scanning
. Directed light reflects back from the object scanned to record the object as millions of polygonal triangles, or a fine mesh. The scanner records the polygonal triangles to comprise a full three dimensional object, which is then translated into an STL file ready for immediate replication with 3D printing. While many designers model their 3D designs from scratch using special (and often expensive) 3D CAD programs, when replicating a part that is already in existence it is exponentially more helpful to begin with a scanned object to eliminate unnecessary time modeling an object from the ground up.
3D printing begins with an STL file. STL – Standard Tessellation Language – files are the industry standard for rapid prototype or 3D Printing. STL files record and save information from 3D CAD data as hundreds of polygons, or facets, defined by vectors and vertices. These polygons instruct 3D Printers during the additive layer manufacturing process. Solid Concepts provides scanned objects with tolerance integrity ready for replication.
"

http://www.x2metrology.com/2014/09/20/science-3d-scanning-quickly-get-buy-offs/
"
The Science of 3D Scanning, How to Quickly get Buy Offs.

September 20, 2014/0 Comments/in 3D Scanning /byinfo@x2metrology.comThe Science of 3D Scanning using a optical 3D scanner. Optical 3D Scanning is based on triangulation, it projects a fringe pattern (structured light) with two cameras on your part just as easy taking a picture from a camera phone. After the scan is complete the software then calculates millions of points within seconds with the final output a clean STL (Standard Tessellation Language).

"



There are some firends that have said to notice the use of Texture Syntesis in the first image that shinen provided, seems pretty noticeable on the terrain rendering; they suggest that at least for the terrain in that image they could have used normal
maps with texture syntesis, of course that using dispalcement maps in texture synthesis is possible, so what do you think?
 
http://nintendoenthusiast.com/forums/styles/casual/xenforo/gradients/category-23px-light.png) 50% 0% repeat-x #e0ded4;">http://ps3p.es/imagenes/fast-racing-neo-wii-u_240692.jpg">


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show

the

game



the_dengle said:
show

the

game


http://wiiudaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/fast-racing-neo-screenshot-640x360.jpg?447b14

 

http://www.shinen.com/files/FastRacingNeo2.jpg

 

http://www.shinen.com/files/FastRacingNeo3.jpg

 

There you go. 



I <3 Classic Platformers!

Multi-console Owner FTW

Damian.W said:

There you go. 

Oh boy, three pictures that barely show any track and tell me absolutely nothing about how the game will play.



the_dengle said:
Damian.W said:

There you go. 

Oh boy, three pictures that barely show any track and tell me absolutely nothing about how the game will play.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKQJ3fDNTac

This gameplay, with the visuals from the screenshots.

Really now, not much else needed. It'll no doubt play the same way, just better visuals. 



I <3 Classic Platformers!

Multi-console Owner FTW

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How big is this game gonna be anyway? And by big, I mean filesize wise cause it sounds like its gonna take up a lot of space



                  

PC Specs: CPU: 7800X3D || GPU: Strix 4090 || RAM: 32GB DDR5 6000 || Main SSD: WD 2TB SN850

Damian.W said:

This gameplay, with the visuals from the screenshots.

Really now, not much else needed. It'll no doubt play the same way, just better visuals. 

I don't get it. When someone says, "This screenshot looks bad, those textures look lousy," etc., people say, "Wait to see it in motion, it will look better."

I say I want to see it in motion, someone says, "Here are some screenshots and an older iteration of the franchise, use your imagination."

I knew Monolith Soft was making some more Xenoblade, I was not surprised when I saw X for the first time. But that doesn't mean I didn't want or need to see it at all.

These guys keep showing screenshots with barely anything in them. Not even the vehicles. We don't know anything about the track designs, the music, the way the game feels when you're playing it. Now they're talking about tesselation and a bunch of stuff I don't know or care about. This is all meaningless to me, I want to see the game.

I get that this will be meaningful to some people, but I really feel like they're beating around the bush here. Teaser after teaser after teaser with nothing substantial to bind it together. It was fine the first couple of times, but at this point I want to tell them to get to the point already, or at least keep it to themselves until they have something significant to show.



I have found that 3d scanning is slowly becoming more often to be used in videogames due to the quality it provides, but since the files are so big they use tesselation to reduce it. Here are some interesting articles

 

 



Jizz_Beard_thePirate said:
How big is this game gonna be anyway? And by big, I mean filesize wise cause it sounds like its gonna take up a lot of space

Around 1GB, according to Shin'en. 

They are wizards when it comes to compression.



Normally the must common compression on games ould be texture compression, but havent heard anything that goes byond 6x and also texture compression introduces artifacts depending on the scale of compression, but in this ase since shinen had to work with files bigger than 1GB per mesh, with texture compression would have been impossible to fit the game in Wii u since the console only has 1GB of RAM and 35MB of Edram; the only think i can think off to reduce the memory requirements for the meshes is tesselation+dispalcements cause reduces memory requirements by hundreds of times, we can consider it like some kind of geometry compression that with a mesh of only thousands of triangles can approximate the look of a mesh of a mesh of million of triangles and since it happens in real time the storage thats being used is that of the low poly mesh and not the transformed one that now is a high poly mesh