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Forums - Politics Discussion - Religious Children Have Difficulty Distinguishing Fact From Fiction

Soriku said:

1. God actually feared they would eat from the Tree of Life and become eternal like him (actually he uses the term "us") so he decided to put an angel to guard either the Tree of Life.

And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." - Genesis 3:22

After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life. - Genesis 3:24

2. The difference is that an admin would know good/evil and right/wrong, knowledge which Adam and Eve lacked. It doesn't matter whether commands came from a god when they're missing a crucial piece of understanding. That said, you have to wonder what god's plan was if Adam and Eve didn't eat from the tree?

3. God strangely seems to imply in Genesis that eating from the Tree of Knowledge would make them die, but that's not what happened at all. In fact the serpent tells Eve that they wouldn't die. Which is exactly what happened. The only effect from eating from the Tree of Knowledge was knowing good and evil. They weren't completely unintelligent, but they clearly didn't know good and evil and right from wrong yet. If they did, what would be the purpose of the tree?

The other strange thing is why the serpent didn't tempt Eve to eat from the Tree of Life too? The only explanation I can think of is for the plot to be convenient. If they ate from the Tree they'd be eternal and the story in the Bible would be wildly different.


Hope you don`t mind me quoting this.

Life and death in the Bible or in God`s words are not about physical death. Life is for those who are one with God and death is for those who are not with God; heaven and hell.
It`s not a question of becoming God, because that will never happen. You can`t be something you are not.

The intent in protecting the Tree of Life is the same intent you`ll find everywhere in the Bible: impurity cannot and will not be mixed with purity. That`s why Jesus died for our sins. As in, only purity can wash away impurity and not impurity the one who can wash itself.
As the Bible says, death is wage of sin.

If they didn`t eat from the Tree we would all be in heaven... probably.

God gave us - not just Adam and Eve - freedom to choose between Him and the Devil, good and right. We choose.



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Evolution is a highly debated study of science and is often misunderstood in terms of its related applications as a science, factual discoveries, and theories of its process. First to understand this scientific endeavor one must also understand science in genera l. This is one science professor’s opinion on that subject. “To me, in a nutshell, the nature and purpose of science is to allow inquiring minds to search for answers to unknowns and to test their hypotheses by designing and performing experiments (Guathier).” Therefore, it is within the scope of purpose of science to try and answer the questions the plague mankind, and often these skilled thinkers are the best for the job. However, it is also human nature to become dogmatic and rigid in a system of ideas; especially when those systems of ideas comprise of one’s own lifetime work.

The nature of science, as eloquently put by Professor Guathier, is to find answers, solutions, and possible applications that one can ponder upon. Now it is certainly also apparent that many questions that have given way to a vast number of scientific realizations come from observation. Evolution is no mistress to this process. Personally, however, I am unaware of any applications directly related to this study of science beyond the attempt to answer one of the most controversial questions of all: Where did we come from?  Apparently there are some applicable uses that have been credited to the science of evolution in regards to genetic modification and genetic engineering.(Gauthier) While I don’t doubt that evolutionary science yielded further scientific studies and questioning that lead to such discoveries I am hesitant to think that evolution itself has any real direct relevance that truly affected the outcome of such studies. I do believe that since evolutionary science began it helped scientists question other things that may have taken longer to come across without evolutionary science.  However, these discoveries still would be possible in and of themselves without evolutionary science.

 Evolution has gained much popularity in recent history; however, the idea is much older. “Ancient Greek philosophers such as Anaximander postulated the development of life from non-life and the evolutionary descent of man from animal.” (All About Science) Darwin popularized the idea and added logical arguments and observations to its credibility.  Most notable of evolutionary observations are the fossil records. Further observations are based on similarity in genetics between different life forms, also visual similarities between different species, and well documented scientific experiments.

While some of the fossil record seems to report a lineage of human kind from an ape-like ancestor there are also fossils that lead some scientist to conjecture over the evolution of other species as well. The real selling point for the credibility of these fossil records is the time frame from which it is believed these fossils originated. Furthermore fossils are generally formed under water thus preserving the remains of a deceased life form until a sediment layer covers it and further preserves the remains. There are several other processes that create fossils, all of which involve some sort of covering of remains thus preserving it.  Thus fossils have a small chance even being created in the first place, and it is very likely there are several life forms that are lost in the sea of time never to be discovered.

Other observations of evolution rely heavily on what could be considered circumstantial evidence. There are even very general definitions of evolution that almost seem to imply that growing from childhood to adult is a form of evolution.  While this may well be within the scope of evolution such a definition of evolution is not really valid to the scope of evolutionary ancestry. Also it is very common to tie in observational occurrences that do not directly prove evolution such as natural selection. That is to say that while natural selection would play a part in determining what creatures’ evolution would survive to procreate and continue its lineage it does not prove evolution nor add credibility to its existence. 

The fact that a human shares more than a 98% similarity with chimpanzees seems to be a strong proponent of evolutionary fact, but is still does not explain how these similarities are so diversely interpreted in physical presence. Also this does not consider the scope of which is the lack of understanding of DNA in general. Furthermore, there are also many other reported similarities between various species in terms of DNA. While it is interesting hypothesis that this is due to common ancestry, it seems more likely that the building blocks of life are comprised of similar materials in all life forms because they are the building blocks of life.

There have also been scientific experiments attempting to recreate evolution in a laboratory. Also there is a well known experiment that produced a new species of a fruit fly and this is considered to be evolutionary fact (Gauthier). However, since this was produced in a laboratory and not in nature it is most definitely not evolution of any kind, but a mutation caused by genetic engineering. There are several so called facts like these in the evolutionary field of science. It is almost like creating a half goat half man clone in a laboratory and then stating that it proves that fauns once existed. In other words it would be impossible to truly recreate evolution in a laboratory without the use of some sort of device that can accelerate time exponentially as to observe the changes of a species over time.

Perceivably more interesting than the facts themselves are the theories of evolution. The most well known theory of evolution is, of course, the Darwinian Theory. However, this theory is mostly outdated and new theories have arrived. Other popular theories include ‘Modern Synthesis,’ and Stephen J. Gould’s theory ‘Punctuated Equilibrium.’ All of these theories go to elaborate upon how and why the change from one thing to the next would occur. All of these theories express ideas on how or why these evolutionary occurrences happen they do not truly answer the question of where life came from or the elements required to create life originated. Furthermore they are all based on an idea that has yet to be proven.

Observations and science do concur of accepted facts that are external to evolution as a whole, but are usually intertwined with evolutionary ideas. Natural Selection was a theory proposed by Darwin that has since been declared as a fact, and is an observation that can stand independently on its own. Various other speculations based on observable occurrences are just that, speculation. There are a plethora of hypotheses on the subject of evolution yet none of them prove the idea upon which they are based. For some reason it seems with evolution the more elaborate the idea or theories behind evolution the more closely evolution begins to resemble an actual fact.

There are many flaws in the assumptions made about evolution; most of which are in regards to the general public’s lack of understanding of evolutionary ideas and facts themselves. Then there are the assumptions and ideas of scientists which are biased by basing their theories upon an idea that has yet to be proven by conventional science. Furthermore, the data gathering in terms of dating the earth and fossils are flawed as well. The most well known of which is carbon-14 dating which is based on the assumption that the carbon-14 being produced in the world is and has always been the same. This is an immensely flawed assumption as it is observable that as the earth’s protection from external influences decreases the amount of carbon-14 entering our atmosphere increases, which should logically lead to the assumption that in the past there were unknowably reduced amounts of carbon-14. This should also lead to the acceptance of the fact that carbon dating is in fact not accurate beyond that of recorded history, and imaginably within limits in this regard as well. Other forms of dating using radioactive isotopes are not any more accurate and rarely yield results that confirm each other, and also relies baseless assumptions of how much of a radioactive isotope would have been present initially. Even if you take away the time evolutionary timeline and subscribe to an idea of punctuated equilibrium the fossils more so reveal the extinction of similar life forms due to some catastrophe due to the nature of fossilization.

 “Ironically, one great unsolved problem in Darwin's master work, On the Origin of Species, was just that: How and why do species originate (PBS)?” More to the point, all of these theories and ideas upon which evolution finds itself are just conjecture and not provable accurate sciences. Furthermore, it seems like this is more of a philosophical and pious belief structure which more so inhibits the advancement of scientific science rather than advance scientific endeavors. More or less it seems scientists get lucky when discovering and being able to apply new concepts based upon evolution. It would be much more logical for scientists to further investigate things that are not known through the things that are known and observable; which can be verified. Rather than wasting time on trying to prove assumptions based on assumptions it would be much more prudent to investigate the history of man and nature by looking inwardly at genetics and DNA rather than basing speculations upon dogmatic beliefs in a flawed system of ideas.

Bibliography 

All About Science. "Darwin's Theory of Evolution." All About Science. .

Chavez, Miguel. The Unofficial Stephen Jay Gould Archive. 28 March 2010 .

Gauthier, Duyen. Nature of Science, Fossil Records, and theories oh my Nick Poling. ?? TBA 2010.

Howells, William. Mankind in the Making. Garden City, NY: Double DA & Company, INC., 1967.

Johnason, Donald C., Lenora C. Johanson and Blake Edgar. Ancestors. New York, NY: Random House, INC., 1994.

Moran, Laurence. "Evolution is a fact and theory." 22 January 1993. Talk Origins. 28 March 2010 .

PBS. PBS Evolution Library database. .

Weldon Owen Pty Limitied. The First Humans. New York, New York: Harper Collins Publishers, 1993.



Talal said:
I will permaban myself if the game releases in 2014.

in reference to KH3 release date

Soriku said:
DélioPT said:

Hope you don`t mind me quoting this.

Life and death in the Bible or in God`s words are not about physical death. Life is for those who are one with God and death is for those who are not with God; heaven and hell.
It`s not a question of becoming God, because that will never happen. You can`t be something you are not.

The intent in protecting the Tree of Life is the same intent you`ll find everywhere in the Bible: impurity cannot and will not be mixed with purity. That`s why Jesus died for our sins. As in, only purity can wash away impurity and not impurity the one who can wash itself.
As the Bible says, death is wage of sin.

If they didn`t eat from the Tree we would all be in heaven... probably.

God gave us - not just Adam and Eve - freedom to choose between Him and the Devil, good and right. We choose.

I get that but Genesis seems like...a different sort of tale. However I also don't think the Bible is consistent.

Your last two sentences don't work out because Adam and Eve (not "we") didn't know the difference between good and evil. If they did, maybe they would've listened to god...hmm.

Speaking of impurity, I'd argue evry time god kills or orders a killing, he's committing his own sins as well.

I haven`t see any inconsistencies so far.
I think i can undertand why the genesis might feel that way. Some of the books in the Bible are more on the description side. They tell you how things came to be or how things will be (like the apocalypse).

For them, knowing involved becoming that something.
Eating from that tree, not only implied desobeying God, but also implied becoming one with death, which would lead them to hell, if not for Jesus' sacrifice.
They knew they shouldn`t do it, but they still did it. It`s no different from us, when we use our freedom for something wrong.

I`d argue that He`s doing justice. Every time God acts, be it to bring you a grace or a punishment, it`s an act of justice, because they are all based on our actions.
Not to mention that life is His gift, and when He decides, for reasons we will most likely never know, that the time has come for the judgement of that person, the time has come.
The use of Man to fulfill that will he`s no different than allowing people to heal others or even to allow priests to forgive in His name.

There was never an unjust action on that regard.



Not surprising. We should teach the next generation of people to be open and tolerant



Xbox One, PS4 and Switch (+ Many Retro Consoles)

'When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called the people's stick'- Mikhail Bakunin

Prediction: Switch will sell better than Wii U Lifetime Sales by Jan 1st 2018

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HthQ6a7FZeA

 



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papamudd said:

The nature of science, as eloquently put by Professor Guathier, is to find answers, solutions, and possible applications that one can ponder upon. Now it is certainly also apparent that many questions that have given way to a vast number of scientific realizations come from observation. Evolution is no mistress to this process. Personally, however, I am unaware of any applications directly related to this study of science beyond the attempt to answer one of the most controversial questions of all: Where did we come from?  Apparently there are some applicable uses that have been credited to the science of evolution in regards to genetic modification and genetic engineering.(Gauthier) While I don’t doubt that evolutionary science yielded further scientific studies and questioning that lead to such discoveries I am hesitant to think that evolution itself has any real direct relevance that truly affected the outcome of such studies. I do believe that since evolutionary science began it helped scientists question other things that may have taken longer to come across without evolutionary science.  However, these discoveries still would be possible in and of themselves without evolutionary science.

 

I don't have time to read your entire post, but I thought I'd pick up on this point. The basic principles of evolution have been used to develop a number of Biopharmaceuticals. A lot of drugs that Pharma companies are producing have been discovered using Molecular Evolution techniques. Other applications are in the development and enhancement of Industrial Biocatalysts, nanotechnology, synthetic biology or as you said, genetic engineering.

These discoveries and the related products would not have been possible without our knowledge of evolution. Some work has been done in rationalising the processes involved in designing biopharmaceuticals, but it's still not a successful as evolutionary techniques (and I should know, I tried).



Soriku said:


Yeah I don't know about that. I don't think God takes "thou shalt not kill" too seriously. Here is the hilarious history of the Amalekites in the Bible.

Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'" - 1 Samuel 15:3

God got pissed that the Amalekites attacked Israel and so he commanded a genocide, because clearly that is the most righteous way of dealing justice. And this is what Saul did, except he decided to have a shred of mercy and spared the king and animals. And then God got pissed that Saul didn't kill them too.

"I regret that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions." Samuel was angry, and he cried out to the LORD all that night. - 1 Samuel 15:11

Anyway, later on the Amalekites actually make a comeback! And David decides to commit genocide on the Amalekites again.

Now David and his men went up and raided the Geshurites, the Girzites and the Amalekites. (From ancient times these peoples had lived in the land extending to Shur and Egypt.) - 1 Samuel 27:8

Whenever David attacked an area, he did not leave a man or woman alive, but took sheep and cattle, donkeys and camels, and clothes. Then he returned to Achish. - 1 Samuel 27:9

Despite a second genocide, these darn Amalekites are back once again later on! I guess some of them were immortal or something. Ironically enough, these dastardly and sinful Amalekites which had to be smited had far more mercy than Saul or David or God. They had taken people captive once they attacked, but they never killed anyone.

David and his men reached Ziklag on the third day. Now the Amalekites had raided the Negev and Ziklag. They had attacked Ziklag and burned it, and had taken captive the women and everyone else in it, both young and old. They killed none of them, but carried them off as they went on their way. - 1 Samuel 30:1-2

If you actually read the Bible you`d know that there were also parts where no single object (spoils of war and such) was allowed to be taken back because they were impure, unholy.

Not to mention passages where those who were in contact with the impure had to go through a cleansing process and only after that could they come back to the community. Do you remember what God said to Moses when he got close to Him in the mountain? To take off his sandals because that was an holy place.

The reason i tell you this is simple.

First of all, forgive me if i am making a mistake, but i would bet the morality of that people isn`t described in the Bible.

What you see there, and again, what you can see in other parts, in another way, is the intent of separating what is of God and what isn`t.
When God told him to eliminate everything it was to make sin go away and not to keep it.
Saul did not to what God told him to.

The Amalekites could have been divided into tribes, like the jews were.

"15:1-9 The sentence of condemnation against the Amalekites had gone forth long before, Ex 17:14; De 25:19, but they had been spared till they filled up the measure of their sins. We are sure that the righteous Lord does no injustice to any. The remembering the kindness of the ancestors of the Kenites, in favour to them, at the time God was punishing the injuries done by the ancestors of the Amalekites, tended to clear the righteousness of God in this dispensation. It is dangerous to be found in the company of God's enemies, and it is our duty and interest to come out from among them, lest we share in their sins and plagues, Re 18:4. As the commandment had been express, and a test of Saul's obedience, his conduct evidently was the effect of a proud, rebellious spirit. He destroyed only the refuse, that was good for little. That which was now destroyed was sacrificed to the justice of God." - http://biblehub.com/1_samuel/15-3.htm



whatever said:
Teaching fiction as fact will do that...


/Thread. 



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Soriku said:
DélioPT said:

If you actually read the Bible you`d know that there were also parts where no single object (spoils of war and such) was allowed to be taken back because they were impure, unholy.

Not to mention passages where those who were in contact with the impure had to go through a cleansing process and only after that could they come back to the community. Do you remember what God said to Moses when he got close to Him in the mountain? To take off his sandals because that was an holy place.

The reason i tell you this is simple.

First of all, forgive me if i am making a mistake, but i would bet the morality of that people isn`t described in the Bible.

What you see there, and again, what you can see in other parts, in another way, is the intent of separating what is of God and what isn`t.
When God told him to eliminate everything it was to make sin go away and not to keep it.
Saul did not to what God told him to.

The Amalekites could have been divided into tribes, like the jews were.

"15:1-9 The sentence of condemnation against the Amalekites had gone forth long before, Ex 17:14; De 25:19, but they had been spared till they filled up the measure of their sins. We are sure that the righteous Lord does no injustice to any. The remembering the kindness of the ancestors of the Kenites, in favour to them, at the time God was punishing the injuries done by the ancestors of the Amalekites, tended to clear the righteousness of God in this dispensation. It is dangerous to be found in the company of God's enemies, and it is our duty and interest to come out from among them, lest we share in their sins and plagues, Re 18:4. As the commandment had been express, and a test of Saul's obedience, his conduct evidently was the effect of a proud, rebellious spirit. He destroyed only the refuse, that was good for little. That which was now destroyed was sacrificed to the justice of God." - http://biblehub.com/1_samuel/15-3.htm


So, in short, if something isn't deemed "holy" (however you go about deciding if it is), kill it? That includes children?

What is unholy about the Amalekites anyway? They were nomads who attacked the Israelites after the Exodus story, and then God got pissed and decided to wage war against them for generations for doing that because revenge. That's really it.

No that`s not really it.
If you only look at it, you ignoring the reasons that lead to such actions and then you`ll never begin to understand why those things happened.

I don`t know what`s unholy about them because i don`t remember all the passages regarding the Amalekites, but in the quote i gave you, it seems their actions weren`t the best for quite some time.

I wish i could explain what God saw in them but i can`t. I can`t even understand all those things that happen around me, let alone understand God without in an absolute way.
But you are right, sin is not to be tolerated and will meet God`s justice. That`s why people who live in sin, die forever in hell and those who repent their ways, don`t.



Soriku said:
DélioPT said:

No that`s not really it.
If you only look at it, you ignoring the reasons that lead to such actions and then you`ll never begin to understand why those things happened.

I don`t know what`s unholy about them because i don`t remember all the passages regarding the Amalekites, but in the quote i gave you, it seems their actions weren`t the best for quite some time.

I wish i could explain what God saw in them but i can`t. I can`t even understand all those things that happen around me, let alone understand God without in an absolute way.
But you are right, sin is not to be tolerated and will meet God`s justice. That`s why people who live in sin, die forever in hell and those who repent their ways, don`t.


Is this one of those typical "you're taking it out of context!" posts when discussing the Bible? I'll make this simple for you.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2017

The Amalekites came and attacked the Israelites at Rephidim. Moses said to Joshua, “Choose some of our men and go out to fight the Amalekites. Tomorrow I will stand on top of the hill with the staff of God in my hands.”

10 So Joshua fought the Amalekites as Moses had ordered, and Moses, Aaron and Hur went to the top of the hill. 11 As long as Moses held up his hands, the Israelites were winning, but whenever he lowered his hands, the Amalekites were winning. 12 When Moses’ hands grew tired, they took a stone and put it under him and he sat on it. Aaron and Hur held his hands up—one on one side, one on the other—so that his hands remained steady till sunset. 13 So Joshua overcame the Amalekite army with the sword.

14 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write this on a scroll as something to be remembered and make sure that Joshua hears it, because I will completely blot out the name of Amalek from under heaven.”

15 Moses built an altar and called it The Lord is my Banner. 16 He said, “Because hands were lifted up against[c] the throne of the Lord,[d] the Lord will be at war against the Amalekites from generation to generation.”

---

This is the first appearence of the Amalekites.  They attacked the Israelites after they came out of Egypt. For attacking God's Chosen People™, God would be at war with them from generation to generation.

Let's skip forward now to Samuel where God remembers his grudge.

http://biblehub.com/1_samuel/15.htm

Samuel said to Saul, "I am the one the LORD sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the LORD.

This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt.

Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'"

---

It's very simple. God decides to have his revenge on the Amalekites for what they did to Israel. God states this himself (according to Samuel) and gives no other motive.

No, i don`t believe it`s taken out of context.

"Write this on a scroll as something to be remembered and make sure that Joshua hears it, because I will completely blot out the name of Amalek from under heaven.”

Yes, God punished them for what they did to Israel. But doesn`t that show their very nature? How their hearts were?
And like the pharaoh, they didn`t change, so their punishment came. Punishment that God already warned about in the first war, so to speak, as the quote above shows.

They didn`t stop like others stopped after losing the battle to Israel. They were keen on defeating Israel.
Again, just like the pharaoh, who despite suffering all those plagues kept on going after the jews.