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Forums - Sony - BluRay in PS3 was Win/Win for Sony

Final-Fan on 25 February 2008
LordTheNightKnight said:
Final-Fan said:
LordTheNightKnight said:
Final-Fan said:
OK, then how would you characterize a 4.67:1 sales base advantage (as opposed to a 1:3 disadvantage)?

If I am twisting your words, set me straight.  "Keeping a racer behind is not the same as causing them to drop out."

OK, let me rephrase:  "If you concede that the PS3 let Blu-ray establish and maintain a SUBSTANTIAL advantage over HD DVD, how can you then say it did not contribute substantially to HD DVD bowing out of the race?"

Happy now?
That's the thing. I have not seen proof of the substantial part, just insitance.
"Keeping a racer behind" In your own words, you admit it.  If it wasn't a "substantial" difference, then you wouldn't have any basis for this statement.
"Keeping a racer behind IS NOT THE SAME AS CAUSING THEM TO DROP OUT."

And the all-caps were delibarate, as you cut off that part to make it look as though I am agreeing with you, when I was not.
I would like to take this opportunity to remind you of an earlier post of mine:

If you hold somebody underwater long enough, he drowns.  If you concede that the PS3 let Blu-ray establish and maintain a [edit:  substantial] advantage over HD DVD, how can you then say it did not contribute substantially to HD DVD bowing out of the race? Or are you only saying that the PS3 did not deliver the knockout blow?  If so, I agree.  That was Netflix/Wal-mart/etc.

Are you now indicating that you do in fact agree with the second question?  Because it sure as hell sounds like it.

[edit:  And I resent the implication that I was -- as you are so fond of accusing -- twisting your words. The full sentence is quoted, in full, BY ME, right above.  The latter part was taken out because whether or not "keeping a racer behind" is or is not the same as causing him to drop out, a force that keeps a racer behind is pretty much by definition having a substantial effect on the race.  In other words, I left that part out because it was irrelevant to the argument I was making and would have been a needless and large complication in that paragraph.]
LordTheNightKnight said:
Final-Fan said:
According to ABI, "it wasn't customers' likes or dislikes that powered the fatal blow in the format war, it was Warner Bros.' decision to switch allegiance to Blu-ray, along with subsequent moves to dump HD DVD by major retailers such as Wal-Mart, Netflix and Blockbuster."

THE FATAL BLOW.
THE FATAL BLOW.

Not the whole victory, but the final surge that carried Blu-ray into the winner's circle.
Unless you can prove that the custumers was almost completely due to the PS3, you are also twisting words. Warner themselves said that it was customer buying blu-Ray players other than the PS3.

Let me repeat that. Players OTHER than the PS3. You don't seem to have even acknowledged that, let alone conceded it.
I do not have to prove any such thing.  Nowhere have I said or implied that it was completely or almost completely thanks to PS3, but you are the one denying that PS3 contributed in ANY SUBSTANTIAL WAY to Blu-ray's overall victory.  Source please on Warner specifically saying that it was NOT PS3 players that influenced its decision.  [edit2:  They also have to not credit any factor strongly influenced by the PS3 install base.]  If it's in this thread, I apologize but I'm blind so please clear the mud from my eyes.

In any case, you ignore my point that this quote does nothing to say what influenced the format war as a whole, only to say what brought it to a close.  Stalingrad wasn't the "final blow" for Germany by any stretch of the imagination, but it was pretty important to the course of the war.  In fact I think it was the turning point but I'm not going to bother verifying.  [edit: A closer analogy might be the USA's aid to the USSR, which continued for most if not all of the war.  I don't see anyone saying that "caused the end of WWII in Europe" but it sure as hell had an effect.]

PS3 Blu-ray players, despite overwhelming numerical superiority, were not 90% of the cause of Blu-ray's software sales advantage.  At the same time, I assert that you are incorrect that the difference they made was INSUBSTANTIAL.

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Final-Fan on 25 February 2008

I'm going to sleep now. I'll see what has traspired since now ... sometime tomorrow. By which I mean today.



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Grey Acumen on 25 February 2008
Final-Fan said:
LordTheNightKnight said:
Final-Fan said:
Grey Acumen said:
first off, if the PS3 launched without BluRay, it might have been cheaper, but what would it have had to set itself apart from the 360 at all? Instead of it being "360 is cheaper and has more games and xbox LIVE" it would have been "360 is the same price and has more games and xbox LIVE"
I'm sympathetic to your position, but when you try to claim (apparently) that being at a higher price HELPED the PS3, I just have to laugh.
He didn't write that it was the higher price SOLELY. You're twisting his words.
Maybe. He said that the higher price (and Blu-ray) were what differentiated the PS3 from the 360. I strongly disagree with the allegation that if not for the (expensive) Blu-ray the PS3 it would not have been able to offer unique and appealing alternative features to those of the 360, but in any case that was what he said.

The higher price (and Blu-ray) are the only things different in the "before" and "after" picture he paints in which the hypothetical Blu-ray-less PS3 has nothing to offer that the 360 doesn't do better. If I did twist his words it was unintentional and (IMO) a very understandable error. [edit: of course, I suppose I did make it sound like having the price high for the sake of having it high was what he said, and that of course is wrong. But it is generally accepted that Blu-ray did not benefit most PS3 owners but only a certain percentage of them, making the Blu-ray-playing PS3 less of a value to most than the non-Blu-ray-playing PS3. I believe GreyAcumen agrees with this, and the rest is implied.]

GreyAcumen: care to set me straight?
This is the only place I see a flaw in your interpretation, it's not a matter that they would have made a fuss over the 360 being better, but there would have been nothing over which to make a fuss abotu the PS3 being better. Looking at the buzz in the media, I don't think NOT having the blu ray and having the lower price, would have been significantly different than NOT having the lower price and having bluray, because there STILL would have been all the OTHER issues for it to deal with. The hype against it would have come out roughly the same.

Let's face it, it got bad hype because of the high price, so what did Sony do? They lowered the price. Do you really think that if they had released it at the same price as the 360 that they would have had enough bad press over the price to drop the price THEN? It would have stayed at that price and been no different than things are right now.

You would have still had the developer's issues with the Cell processor.

You still would have had the issue that Microsoft had been paying for 3rd party exclusives (may just be a rumor) so a lot of exclusives might have stayed that way even with an earlier release (which is assuming they would have released earlier if blu ray hadn't been included, not saying it couldn't have, just that it's not certain they would have)

You still would have had Wii being cheaper with better implementation of motion controls.

You still would have had the PS2 offering the entire Playstation library of games for a fraction of the cost, except for some 60 or so odd games that had been developed for the PS3.

You still likely would have ended up with critisism over the implementation of motion controls in heavily hyped games like Lair.

Keep in mind, when I'm bringing these issues up, I'm not using them to bash the PS3, I'm using them to point out what other issues besides Blu Ray that PS3 has had to overcome. in the long run, there was a lot more holding PS3 back then "just" Blu Ray, and in the long run, having blu ray to set itself apart from the 360 might have been a minor plus on sony's side before, but that benefit is now growing since Blu Ray has become accepted as the standard.

I honestly don't think that having the lower initial cost, with how much else the PS3 was dealing with, would have made much difference comparatively.

Really, "what if" scenarios can go however you want them to go, because there's no way to really KNOW what WOULD have happened if one thing had happened instead of another. It's pure hypotheticals, I just try to keep my guesses conservative, and there really are more factors to consider than just Blu Ray.

 

Also, why the heck has this reached two pages already?



Seppukuties is like LBP Lite, on crack. Play it already!

Currently wrapped up in: Half Life, Portal, and User Created Source Mods
Games I want: (Wii)Mario Kart, Okami, Bully, Conduit,  No More Heroes 2 (GC) Eternal Darkness, Killer7, (PS2) Ico, God of War1&2, Legacy of Kain: SR2&Defiance


My Prediction: Wii will be achieve 48% market share by the end of 2008, and will achieve 50% by the end of june of 09. Prediction Failed.

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GhaleonUnlimited on 25 February 2008

Having a next-gen video format the average consumer doesn't know why they should care about, and being in last place + the most expensive in the videogame race is not win/win.

I don't think they'll ever catch up in America.



Final-Fan on 25 February 2008

@ Grey Acumen: OK. I do still have disagreements but I understand your position much better now and I certainly would not laugh at it.

The thread is at this size mainly because of the debate between me and LordtheNightKnight.



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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

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Smash_Brother on 25 February 2008
Mars said:

lmao umm bud there is no downlaodable media for it to beat.

downlaod rentals mean nothing compared to a physical disk. 

iTunes Movies Sold
1,300,000
From period: Sept. 12, 2006 - Jan 10, 2007

HD-DVDs Sold

650,000

From period: March 31, 2006 - March 9, 2007

Blu-Ray Movies Sold
675,000
From period: March 3, 2003 - March 9, 2007

Mind you, this was BEFORE Apple rolled out the AppleTV with HD and downloadable HD movies which, surprisingly, only cost about $5 more and are only a few GB more.

They've also added HD movie rentals, and thanks to the akamai servers, you can start watching a movie minutes after choosing to rent it and it will continue to download seamlessly in the background.

Then there's Direct TV which has been around for even longer, and Netflix's "$20 for all the movies you want" online download service is becoming increasingly popular.

It's all moving toward downloadable content: games, movies, TV, all of it. Storage is becoming cheaper all the time, internet connections are becoming faster all the time. All of this will move to an online model within the next 3-5 years.

How can DLC not be a threat when DLC is already kicking BR's ass? 



"I mean, c'mon, Viva Pinata, a game with massive marketing, didn't sell worth a damn to the "sophisticated" 360 audience, despite near-universal praise--is that a sign that 360 owners are a bunch of casual ignoramuses that can't get their heads around a 'gardening' sim? Of course not. So let's please stop trying to micro-analyze one game out of hundreds and using it as the poster child for why good, non-1st party, games can't sell on Wii. (Everyone frequenting this site knows this is nonsense, and yet some of you just can't let it go because it's the only scab you have left to pick at after all your other "Wii will phail1!!1" straw men arguments have been put to the torch.)" - exindguy on Boom Blocks

Grey Acumen on 25 February 2008
Smash_Brother said:
Mars said:

lmao umm bud there is no downlaodable media for it to beat.

downlaod rentals mean nothing compared to a physical disk.

iTunes Movies Sold
1,300,000
From period: Sept. 12, 2006 - Jan 10, 2007

HD-DVDs Sold

650,000

From period: March 31, 2006 - March 9, 2007

Blu-Ray Movies Sold
675,000
From period: March 3, 2003 - March 9, 2007

Mind you, this was BEFORE Apple rolled out the AppleTV with HD and downloadable HD movies which, surprisingly, only cost about $5 more and are only a few GB more.

They've also added HD movie rentals, and thanks to the akamai servers, you can start watching a movie minutes after choosing to rent it and it will continue to download seamlessly in the background.

Then there's Direct TV which has been around for even longer, and Netflix's "$20 for all the movies you want" online download service is becoming increasingly popular.

It's all moving toward downloadable content: games, movies, TV, all of it. Storage is becoming cheaper all the time, internet connections are becoming faster all the time. All of this will move to an online model within the next 3-5 years.

How can DLC not be a threat when DLC is already kicking BR's ass?

Look, I'll admit, a lot of stuff may be moving towards DLC, but it will NEVER replace a permanent physical storage medium. It might beat it, but it will never REPLACE it.

Thing is, people LIKE having a physical "if someone wants to take this from me they'll have to pry it from my cold dead fingers" storage medium. DVD is enough for now, but eventually, I do see file sizes and quality pushing things to where we need Blu Ray for better convenience, even regardless of a "high definition" issue.

Downloadable content will likely become more convenient, along with flash based storage as a rewritable medium, but there's still plenty of room for Blu Ray to carve its niche into.

 



Seppukuties is like LBP Lite, on crack. Play it already!

Currently wrapped up in: Half Life, Portal, and User Created Source Mods
Games I want: (Wii)Mario Kart, Okami, Bully, Conduit,  No More Heroes 2 (GC) Eternal Darkness, Killer7, (PS2) Ico, God of War1&2, Legacy of Kain: SR2&Defiance


My Prediction: Wii will be achieve 48% market share by the end of 2008, and will achieve 50% by the end of june of 09. Prediction Failed.

<- Click to see more of her

 

Strategyking92 on 25 February 2008

The reason I thought HD was gonna win was because it was cheaper.... and since the us economy is going KABOOM I thought movie publishers would go with the cheaper, safer bet.... yet they didn't, they don't care how much we have to spend, they're EVIL!??!?! MUAHAHAHAHAHA!?!?!?!?!

(being serious, and joking a little)



And that's the only thing I need is *this*. I don't need this or this. Just this PS4... And this gaming PC. - The PS4 and the Gaming PC and that's all I need... And this Xbox 360. - The PS4, the Gaming PC, and the Xbox 360, and that's all I need... And these PS3's. - The PS4, and these PS3's, and the Gaming PC, and the Xbox 360... And this Nintendo DS. - The PS4, this Xbox 360, and the Gaming PC, and the PS3's, and that's all *I* need. And that's *all* I need too. I don't need one other thing, not one... I need this. - The Gaming PC and PS4, and Xbox 360, and thePS3's . Well what are you looking at? What do you think I'm some kind of a jerk or something! - And this. That's all I need.

Obligatory dick measuring Gaming Laptop Specs: Sager NP8270-GTX: 17.3" FULL HD (1920X1080) LED Matte LC, nVIDIA GeForce GTX 780M, Intel Core i7-4700MQ, 16GB (2x8GB) DDR3, 750GB SATA II 3GB/s 7,200 RPM Hard Drive

HappySqurriel on 25 February 2008
Grey Acumen said:

Look, I'll admit, a lot of stuff may be moving towards DLC, but it will NEVER replace a permanent physical storage medium. It might beat it, but it will never REPLACE it.

Thing is, people LIKE having a physical "if someone wants to take this from me they'll have to pry it from my cold dead fingers" storage medium. DVD is enough for now, but eventually, I do see file sizes and quality pushing things to where we need Blu Ray for better convenience, even regardless of a "high definition" issue.

Downloadable content will likely become more convenient, along with flash based storage as a rewritable medium, but there's still plenty of room for Blu Ray to carve its niche into.

 


If you could eliminate DRM, or at least keep it limited enough so people can use their content in a reasonable way (Transfer movie to iPod or PSP for example), and downloadable content is inexpensive enough then the physical format can be eliminated.

As an example, the only people I know who still buy CDs are those that are afraid of getting a virus from downloads and/or those who think iTunes is a rippoff (lower quality music, no liner-notes or artwork, and it is more expensive then buying a cd in stores?).

At the right price (about the cost of a rental) I am willing to even give up on the DRM complaints...



Final-Fan on 25 February 2008
HappySqurriel said:
Grey Acumen said:
Look, I'll admit, a lot of stuff may be moving towards DLC, but it will NEVER replace a permanent physical storage medium. It might beat it, but it will never REPLACE it.

Thing is, people LIKE having a physical "if someone wants to take this from me they'll have to pry it from my cold dead fingers" storage medium. DVD is enough for now, but eventually, I do see file sizes and quality pushing things to where we need Blu Ray for better convenience, even regardless of a "high definition" issue.

Downloadable content will likely become more convenient, along with flash based storage as a rewritable medium, but there's still plenty of room for Blu Ray to carve its niche into.



If you could eliminate DRM, or at least keep it limited enough so people can use their content in a reasonable way (Transfer movie to iPod or PSP for example), and downloadable content is inexpensive enough then the physical format can be eliminated.

As an example, the only people I know who still buy CDs are those that are afraid of getting a virus from downloads and/or those who think iTunes is a rippoff (lower quality music, no liner-notes or artwork, and it is more expensive then buying a cd in stores?).

At the right price (about the cost of a rental) I am willing to even give up on the DRM complaints...
But the physical format is the only one that gives you a nice case, the manual, etc. Some people like to pay the extra price to buy hardcover books instead of paperback. If nothing else, physical media will at least have that audience. I bought the physical Orange Box. I paid extra for a hard copy of DEFCON. I will continue to buy physical copies of the games I enjoy, and movies if and when it comes to that. (That's not to say that I will never buy DLC instead, but if I really like something I'm definitely going to go for the hard copy.)

Maybe some of the people complaining about the lack of liner notes and artwork would keep buying CDs even if iTures was cheaper. PDFs aren't the same.

DLC is definitely going to gain market share, and it may ultimately eclipse physical media in that regard, but physical media will NOT become extinct. The new equilibrium will be reached, and Blu-ray will thrive in that environment. Blu-ray will likely never be as big as DVD was, but that's not the same thing as the "one foot in the grave" sentiment people are spouting about.

The phsyical format will NOT be eliminated.

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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom!