HylianSwordsman said: Intrinsic said: His snarky opinion about how the digital age is already here. I disagree. Why do you think there's consumer resistence, in the gaming industry of all industries? We're supposed to be the group that is the first to adopt new technology, yet we rejected the XBO in it's original form. Why? Consumer rights. Our rights to own digital property are shit.

There is nothing wrong with digital.... just look at the Pc guys and steam. And as far as tech adoption gos, they trump console gamers every and any day. What was wrong with MS was how they went about stuff. If they had just been a little more tactful no one would have had a problem.

You fail to see what or how having options play into all these things. You also fail to see how easy it is to make consumers do something if you can in some way mak what you are giving them seem convenient. You may wanna attack what i say as if you are standing up for consumer rights, but trust that i don't much care about digital or physical. I am just stating the facts based on how i have seen things happen in the industry.

Let me give you some "options". Then at least be honest and tell me what you would do.

• PS5/XB2 MSRP $500 with bundled external USB disc drive or,
• PS5/XB2 MSRP $400 without disc drive you can also buy the proprietary disc drive as a standalone for $120
• Digatal games $50 excluding $5 discount if you are PS+/XBLG subscriber (so $45 for subscribers) or,
• Physical game $60

Thats it, nothing else has to change. You can still have yur system with a drive if you want to and buy games on disc. No one stops you and everything constinues as is. And for those going digital, nothing changes there either, oits still done exactly like it is now. The trick is, they have made they primary console configuration one without a drive. you can pay for a discounted console and bundled drive but history has shown that people always go with the cheaper option.

HylianSwordsman said: Intrinsic said: His snarky opinion about how the digital age is already here. I disagree. Why do you think there's consumer resistence, in the gaming industry of all industries? We're supposed to be the group that is the first to adopt new technology, yet we rejected the XBO in it's original form. Why? Consumer rights. Our rights to own digital property are shit.

The original form of the XBO wasn't adopting new technology, it was applying technology we already had in an anticonsumer way.

First Sale Doctrine and all that...

BHR-3 said: no to costly they removed loading times by having games downloaded to the HDD so theres no more "disk reading"

Fair point, however, an awful lot of games that force you to download part of it to the HDD, STILL have some annoying loading going on.

They are more likely to put SSDs in the consoles to replace HDDs to improve read speeds / reduce load times and go all in with digital to remove physical distribution as much as possible.

tiffac said: I'm not a tech person, so I'm illiterate in all of this but why not just use a SD cards? (or something like that) They are cheaper in price.

• 64GB Class 10 SDcard (44MB/s max transfer speed) $20 mass produced excluding packaging and distribution. 
• 50GB blu-ray disc (copies data to HDD/SSD) less than $1 mass produced ecluding packing and distribution.
• 1TB HDD (~200MB/s transfer speed) ~$50 mass p. and is only done once with each console for lifetime.
• 1TB SSD (~500MB/s) ~$50 mass p. in another 6 years. Same benefits of above.

So yh, no Sd cards. There is absolutely zero reason to use an SD card. 

Intrinsic said: His condescending opinion of me, coupled with a long rambling blurb about why I'm stupid for not thinking he's right, said in a tactful way.

I agree that a lot of the disagreements are over options, actually. Microsoft might have been accepted if they'd just offered the Kinectless SKU to begin with, and offered non digital options. Often for consumers it's the priciple of the thing, we just don't like to be told there's only one option when it seems like it'd be easy enough to give us more than one. I agree that the way you're proposing the industry could/has started going about it will convince some people, but convincing some people is not the same as consumer rights. I get that you don't care about digital or physical, but you're a fool for not caring. You don't have the same rights with a digital game as you do with a physical game. Until we can get all the legal crap sorted out, we won't be able to create a system that would allow for consistently enforcable digital retail management that simulates the rights of physical property and isn't exploited for the company's gain. Only then will universal adoption of digital happen.

 

As for what I'd honestly do? I'd refuse to buy the product. I don't want an external disc drive on my console, that's retarded. Why would you want an external disc drive anywhere? No exclusive could get me to buy the product. I'd pirate the games if I was that desperate, I'm not getting something that ridiculous. I notice you say "PS5/XB2" but make no mention of Nintendo? So then Nintendo isn't doing this bullshit? I'll buy their product then thank you.

Moderated,

-Mr Khan

DevilRising said: BHR-3 said: no to costly they removed loading times by having games downloaded to the HDD so theres no more "disk reading" Fair point, however, an awful lot of games that force you to download part of it to the HDD, STILL have some annoying loading going on.

With the current gen PS4/XBO, the disc drive is practically useless. It has only two functions.

1. Distribution medium and facilitates game install to HDD.
2. Security validation of installed game from disc (so basically even though it copied itself to your HDD you need it in the system for the game to run)

This is primarily done because HDDs transfer data to RAM much faster than disc drives. So it just makes sense to have everything installed to the HDD and games run from there. However, we are still talking about 5GB of data here (thats how much RAM is usable by devs on the PS4/XBO). Now devs don't have to move 5GB of data from the HDD to RAM all the time, but the would at least be moving like 3GB everytime you get to a new level. Now even if data is moved from HDD at the peak sata2 interface speed (which it isnt but I am trying to keep it simple), you are looking at 300MB/s max. 

That means it will still take 10secs to load a level. In a post I made earlier in this thread, italked about something that could be the only way to "mostly" do away with loading times.

HylianSwordsman said: Intrinsic said: 1.His condescending opinion of me, coupled with a long rambling blurb about why I'm stupid for not thinking he's right, said in a tactful way. 2. I agree that a lot of the disagreements are over options, actually. Microsoft might have been accepted if they'd just offered the Kinectless SKU to begin with, and offered non digital options. Often for consumers it's the priciple of the thing, we just don't like to be told there's only one option when it seems like it'd be easy enough to give us more than one. I agree that the way you're proposing the industry could/has started going about it will convince some people, but convincing some people is not the same as consumer rights. I get that you don't care about digital or physical, but you're a fool for not caring. 3. You don't have the same rights with a digital game as you do with a physical game. Until we can get all the legal crap sorted out, we won't be able to create a system that would allow for consistently enforcable digital retail management that simulates the rights of physical property and isn't exploited for the company's gain. 4. Only then will universal adoption of digital happen.

1. Funny thing is, in our entire conversation you have been the one being condescending. Like literally. I chose to ignore it the first time as not to detract. But whatever. And no one said you are stupid or you should agree with me. All I have done is say you shouldn't be this defencive as I am not picking sides, I am just pointing out something. You can choose to take it personally and attack the mesenger or listen and talk about the message. You see? Choices.
2. Reading this I wonder if you really know what MS actually tried to do and what caused the problem. They never set out to make a digat only XBO. NEVER. The problem everyone had with them, was that they were trying to tie your physical games to your XBL account. 
3. And you never will. Thats simply the nature of digital. There is just no way around it, if going digital your content has to be tied to an account. Or not what stops people from just copying their download for a million other ppl. Thats the funny thing about physical, the only freedom you really have with it is that you can carry the disc around. Yes, you can copy it. But you can't play it in its copied form unless you hack the console or copy it to another disc. And you can't copy it to another disc cause you need proprietary hardware and software. 
4. You seem to have a lot of faith in people, and how much they really want to keep using physical discs. Try something, look for any avid PC gamer and ask him when last he has purchased a physical game.... 

And let me understand something, rather tha buy a console and use an external drive since you would rather use disc drives, because you don't want the whole digital stuff, you would buy the console and pirate (digital by the way) the game cause you are tryng to make a point? Ok... got you.

Intrinsic said: His deflection of my argument.

Alright fine. I don't really care. But you can say how PC gamers have embraced the digital age, but then really, PC gamers are irrelevant. If we turn to a digital age, it will be because smartphones and tablets never had a disc drive to begin with, so any gaming there had to be digital, and consumers didn't make a fuss because it wouldn't even make sense to have physical media for such devices. As tablets become powerful enough to replace PCs, which they will, the mainstream consumer will embrace the digital age.

HylianSwordsman said: Playing the victim again............

Wow... are you one of those people that are hell bent on "winning an argument" so they just throw all reason outta the window while at the same time playing the victim role? PC gamers are irrelevant? One second you are talking about nondigital adoption then conveniently ignored the facet of the industry that dictates all these trends.

PC gaming was the first to adopt disc based distribution while consoles were still chasing their tails with carts. Fact. And PC games were the first to run games primarily off a HDD to improve data streaming. Fact. And now PC games are all digital. You saying you don't see a trend there? But fine, for the sake of ur slanted argument lets ignore PC games.

Do you know why the current gen consoles PS4/XBO install all their games to the HDD instead of running them of the disc? Its because of transfer speeds. As games get bigger an level assets get more data expensive, you need much faster ways of moving that data. What this means is that right now there is a fundamental necessity to using a HDD/SDD that a disc can NEVER match. And that trend will only grow. Imagine this, spend 1min 30 secs loading a level off a disc or spend 5 seconds loading it off a HDD, and how patient you can be here isn't even the issue, do you realize that how fast you can move data to RAM actually affects how a game is made?

I was gonna say something about the ridiculous thing you said about tablets replacing PCs (obviously because as tablet tech improves PC tech remains stagnant) but I won't bother. I can see winning is more important to you than the facts so I will just let it go. You win.