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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - Forza Horizon 2 Announced - Cross-gen coming this fall

fps_d0minat0r said:
lol... how will all the xbox fans who couldnt stand to see DC at 30fps cope with this now?

anyways... 30fps is good enough for second rate racing games. I think forza and GT will always be 60 where the difference matters in sim racing.


One game is open world and the other is not. There really is no reason to have the debate or even wonder. The thing DC needs to worry about is an open world game having the same resolution and frame rate looking better than it.



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MB1025 said:
fps_d0minat0r said:
lol... how will all the xbox fans who couldnt stand to see DC at 30fps cope with this now?

anyways... 30fps is good enough for second rate racing games. I think forza and GT will always be 60 where the difference matters in sim racing.


One game is open world and the other is not. There really is no reason to have the debate or even wonder. The thing DC needs to worry about is an open world game having the same resolution and frame rate looking better than it.

 

We will see which one will look better as today gameplay of H2 is to come to us. Though the comparison will be a little bit off as both games don't follow the same art direction. But just the imagination of a next-gen Horizon makes me happy. To me the first Horizon was the best looking racing game last gen.



walsufnir said:
fps_d0minat0r said:
walsufnir said:
fps_d0minat0r said:
walsufnir said:
fps_d0minat0r said:
lol... how will all the xbox fans who couldnt stand to see DC at 30fps cope with this now?.


Several reasons, mainly: The first Horizon had 30fps locked. And with locked meaning no single frame ever dropped. Second the special treatment for input delay and physics update done at 360hz which is seldom to never found in other racing games rendering 30fps.


Yeah but why would you even assume DC wont be locked at 30 and that only devs who work on forza horizon are capable of "special treatment"? Hardly a convincing argument.


Who did? But actually a lot of people assumed H2 is going to be bad because cross-gen. Why?

Seriosly though PG have a (very good) record with H1 so assuming locked 30fps and very good refresh for everything else is much safer than in DC but of course not locked out. And I don't want to convince you as this is impossible given your record.

If you didnt then what else could the reply with 'reasons' mean?


H1 was a 30fps game so the second one was expected to be 30fps. Plus the first one didn't really feel like a 30fps game as I explained above. And the devs were never targeting or teasing 60fps - this is also different to 60fps.

And in what way is the expectations of the developers related to how gamers feel about playing a racing game at 30fps? the only connection I see here is psychological where you are assuming people think a game aiming for 60 and settling for 30 is worse than a game that never claims what they were targeting and then announced it was 30 which is the most BS ive heard.



fps_d0minat0r said:
walsufnir said:


H1 was a 30fps game so the second one was expected to be 30fps. Plus the first one didn't really feel like a 30fps game as I explained above. And the devs were never targeting or teasing 60fps - this is also different to 60fps.

And in what way is the expectations of the developers related to how gamers feel about playing a racing game at 30fps? the only connection I see here is psychological where you are assuming people think a game aiming for 60 and settling for 30 is worse than a game that never claims what they were targeting and then announced it was 30 which is the most BS ive heard.

This is totally your problem. I told more than enough why gamers are not that critical at the moment just because H2 is 30fps.



walsufnir said:
fps_d0minat0r said:
walsufnir said:


H1 was a 30fps game so the second one was expected to be 30fps. Plus the first one didn't really feel like a 30fps game as I explained above. And the devs were never targeting or teasing 60fps - this is also different to 60fps.

And in what way is the expectations of the developers related to how gamers feel about playing a racing game at 30fps? the only connection I see here is psychological where you are assuming people think a game aiming for 60 and settling for 30 is worse than a game that never claims what they were targeting and then announced it was 30 which is the most BS ive heard.

This is totally your problem. I told more than enough why gamers are not that critical at the moment just because H2 is 30fps.


I know and I appreciate your effort.

But I just think its a lame reason since at the end of the day both are 30fps games and target frame-rates or assumptions on input methods isnt going to change the fact.



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fps_d0minat0r said:
walsufnir said:
fps_d0minat0r said:
walsufnir said:


H1 was a 30fps game so the second one was expected to be 30fps. Plus the first one didn't really feel like a 30fps game as I explained above. And the devs were never targeting or teasing 60fps - this is also different to 60fps.

And in what way is the expectations of the developers related to how gamers feel about playing a racing game at 30fps? the only connection I see here is psychological where you are assuming people think a game aiming for 60 and settling for 30 is worse than a game that never claims what they were targeting and then announced it was 30 which is the most BS ive heard.

This is totally your problem. I told more than enough why gamers are not that critical at the moment just because H2 is 30fps.


I know and I appreciate your effort.

But I just think its a lame reason since at the end of the day both are 30fps games and target frame-rates or assumptions on input methods isnt going to change the fact.


The facts will be there when both games are released and DF investigated both games and dug out the differences.



walsufnir said:
fps_d0minat0r said:
walsufnir said:
fps_d0minat0r said:
walsufnir said:


H1 was a 30fps game so the second one was expected to be 30fps. Plus the first one didn't really feel like a 30fps game as I explained above. And the devs were never targeting or teasing 60fps - this is also different to 60fps.

And in what way is the expectations of the developers related to how gamers feel about playing a racing game at 30fps? the only connection I see here is psychological where you are assuming people think a game aiming for 60 and settling for 30 is worse than a game that never claims what they were targeting and then announced it was 30 which is the most BS ive heard.

This is totally your problem. I told more than enough why gamers are not that critical at the moment just because H2 is 30fps.


I know and I appreciate your effort.

But I just think its a lame reason since at the end of the day both are 30fps games and target frame-rates or assumptions on input methods isnt going to change the fact.


The facts will be there when both games are released and DF investigated both games and dug out the differences.


Exactly. And I cant wait until they forget to mention how forza horizon 2 has a magical system which makes its 30fps superior to other 30fps games.



fps_d0minat0r said:
walsufnir said:


The facts will be there when both games are released and DF investigated both games and dug out the differences.


Exactly. And I cant wait until they forget to mention how forza horizon 2 has a magical system which makes its 30fps superior to other 30fps games.


With they you mean DF? Well, for H1 they had a big part of the article especially about 30hz and 60hz so I would be surprised if they would forget it in the successor (or do some people not want them to?):

 

From 60Hz to 30Hz: the pros and cons

To make up the shortfall somewhat, Playground implements its own form of motion blur in order to reduce the judder imposed by halving the amount of discrete frames that end up on your HDTV. While it can't hope to match the "full-fat" 60Hz experience, it's actually a really impressive piece of tech, seemingly more than just the simple camera blur you may expect. Looking at game captures frame-by-frame, the tech appears capable of picking out specific objects and blurring them individually according to distance from the camera and velocity - an object-based implementation in other words. Combined with the consistent frame-rate it works especially well in chase-cam mode where the camera is drawn back from the action, but its effects in mitigating judder aren't quite as pronounced in first person views where the difference between one frame and the next is that much more pronounced.

Over and above the fluidity of the screen update, the biggest challenge facing Playground in making Horizon feel like a Forza game was in retaining the signature physics and precision response. Forza Motorsport, famously, operates a 360 update per second system to ensure the authenticity of its physics, which ties in directly with the fast response from the 60Hz screen update. You can feel those calculations through the pad: input lag is very low indeed at 66ms - up to twice as responsive as many other racers we've played. Dropping down to 30Hz can have a fundamental impact on that low latency response. Up until now, only Criterion has managed to get close to giving that precision feel in a 30Hz title - famously, Need for Speed: Hot Pursuit cuts frame-rate in half compared to Burnout Paradise (and indeed, Forza Motorsport) but only adds 16.67ms - or one single frame - of additional latency.

Our input lag tests - measured with a combination of a Ben Heck latency controller monitor board and a high speed camera - suggests that Horizon adds two additional frames of latency to that found in Forza Motorsport 4, giving a total of 100ms. This isn't quite the same level of achievement as Need for Speed: Hot Pursuit (which based on the games we've measured is the most responsive 30Hz game ever made) but it's damn close. Indeed, prior to the release of NFS, many believed that 100ms was the lowest input latency possible on a 30Hz current-gen title.

1/7 Motion blur is the primary visual tool Playground Games uses to eliminate the judder typically associated with 30Hz gaming. This gallery of selected in-game shots demonstrates the effect in motion. Use the View All button to access full resolution shots.

Side-by-side with Forza 4, the difference can definitely be felt, but the move to 30Hz pays off in many other regards. Processing time per frame is doubled, opening up a whole new world of possibilities to the Playground developers. Key Forza 4 engine systems could be adapted, enhanced and improved with the additional time available. The most dramatic change is in the lighting. The existing Forza engine is no slouch here - the image-based lighting of Need for Speed: Hot Pursuit (a technique that "wraps" the environment around the cars) was impressive running at 30Hz, but it becomes a thing of beauty at twice the frame-rate. Gamma correct HDR is also implemented, ensuring that detail stands out in all lighting conditions.

Forza Horizon adds to that: a full time of day lighting system has been implemented, meaning that lighting conditions change radically as we move from day to night and back to day. Horizon offers dynamic shadows rendered according to the position of the sun, and these are implemented on both environments and vehicles. There are still compromises though - headlights don't seem to be the fully dynamic light sources you'd hope them to be, with limited illumination of cars up ahead and no additional brightness to the lighting when multiple beams intersect. In addition, there are no real-time reflections from the other cars, just from the environment. That 33.33ms rendering time can only go so far and it's case of Playground picking the trade-offs it felt were best. [Updated: small clarification on night-time lighted added.] 



MB1025 said:
fps_d0minat0r said:
lol... how will all the xbox fans who couldnt stand to see DC at 30fps cope with this now?

anyways... 30fps is good enough for second rate racing games. I think forza and GT will always be 60 where the difference matters in sim racing.


One game is open world and the other is not. There really is no reason to have the debate or even wonder. The thing DC needs to worry about is an open world game having the same resolution and frame rate looking better than it.

No, it really doesn't have to worry about that. Sorry.



 

The PS5 Exists. 


walsufnir said:
fps_d0minat0r said:
walsufnir said:


The facts will be there when both games are released and DF investigated both games and dug out the differences.


Exactly. And I cant wait until they forget to mention how forza horizon 2 has a magical system which makes its 30fps superior to other 30fps games.


With they you mean DF? Well, for H1 they had a big part of the article especially about 30hz and 60hz so I would be surprised if they would forget it in the successor (or do some people not want them to?):

 

From 60Hz to 30Hz: the pros and cons

To make up the shortfall somewhat, Playground implements its own form of motion blur in order to reduce the judder imposed by halving the amount of discrete frames that end up on your HDTV. While it can't hope to match the "full-fat" 60Hz experience, it's actually a really impressive piece of tech, seemingly more than just the simple camera blur you may expect. Looking at game captures frame-by-frame, the tech appears capable of picking out specific objects and blurring them individually according to distance from the camera and velocity - an object-based implementation in other words. Combined with the consistent frame-rate it works especially well in chase-cam mode where the camera is drawn back from the action, but its effects in mitigating judder aren't quite as pronounced in first person views where the difference between one frame and the next is that much more pronounced.

Over and above the fluidity of the screen update, the biggest challenge facing Playground in making Horizon feel like a Forza game was in retaining the signature physics and precision response. Forza Motorsport, famously, operates a 360 update per second system to ensure the authenticity of its physics, which ties in directly with the fast response from the 60Hz screen update. You can feel those calculations through the pad: input lag is very low indeed at 66ms - up to twice as responsive as many other racers we've played. Dropping down to 30Hz can have a fundamental impact on that low latency response. Up until now, only Criterion has managed to get close to giving that precision feel in a 30Hz title - famously, Need for Speed: Hot Pursuit cuts frame-rate in half compared to Burnout Paradise (and indeed, Forza Motorsport) but only adds 16.67ms - or one single frame - of additional latency.

Our input lag tests - measured with a combination of a Ben Heck latency controller monitor board and a high speed camera - suggests that Horizon adds two additional frames of latency to that found in Forza Motorsport 4, giving a total of 100ms. This isn't quite the same level of achievement as Need for Speed: Hot Pursuit (which based on the games we've measured is the most responsive 30Hz game ever made) but it's damn close. Indeed, prior to the release of NFS, many believed that 100ms was the lowest input latency possible on a 30Hz current-gen title.

1/7 Motion blur is the primary visual tool Playground Games uses to eliminate the judder typically associated with 30Hz gaming. This gallery of selected in-game shots demonstrates the effect in motion. Use the View All button to access full resolution shots.

Side-by-side with Forza 4, the difference can definitely be felt, but the move to 30Hz pays off in many other regards. Processing time per frame is doubled, opening up a whole new world of possibilities to the Playground developers. Key Forza 4 engine systems could be adapted, enhanced and improved with the additional time available. The most dramatic change is in the lighting. The existing Forza engine is no slouch here - the image-based lighting of Need for Speed: Hot Pursuit (a technique that "wraps" the environment around the cars) was impressive running at 30Hz, but it becomes a thing of beauty at twice the frame-rate. Gamma correct HDR is also implemented, ensuring that detail stands out in all lighting conditions.

Forza Horizon adds to that: a full time of day lighting system has been implemented, meaning that lighting conditions change radically as we move from day to night and back to day. Horizon offers dynamic shadows rendered according to the position of the sun, and these are implemented on both environments and vehicles. There are still compromises though - headlights don't seem to be the fully dynamic light sources you'd hope them to be, with limited illumination of cars up ahead and no additional brightness to the lighting when multiple beams intersect. In addition, there are no real-time reflections from the other cars, just from the environment. That 33.33ms rendering time can only go so far and it's case of Playground picking the trade-offs it felt were best. [Updated: small clarification on night-time lighted added.] 

Most the advantages described are relating to the fact that they are "making the most of the extra processing time" due to it being 30fps compared to forza 4 which is 60fps.

You seem to be reading it like its a comparison against other 30fps games.... and the section which is actually doing that you are not paying attention to.

"This isn't quite the same level of achievement as Need for Speed: Hot Pursuit (which based on the games we've measured is the most responsive 30Hz game ever made)"

Atleast that clears up the fact that forza horizon isnt doing anything which is out of the reach of other developers.