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Forums - Sports - The Football Thread - 17/18 Season

S.Peelman said:
Noo! Why Germany did you have a bad day yesterday?

Too many silly mistakes and too unlucky to score yourselves. For the record I think an Italian referee probably wasn't the best idea, but the penalty was a penalty. I wanted the final to be Belgium-Germany. If not I hoped for Italy. Well, at least Spain isn't a finalist. Now I hope Portugal wins, I don't like France.

What has the nationality of the ref got to do with players making mistakes? Do you think for some reason him having zero control over his own national team losing on penalties means he will be unfairly bias against the team that beat them? Question his integrity and that of the profession as a whole?

Just like Spurs fans did with a ref end of last season thinking a ref might be bias against them in a match they should easily have won when in the end they came 3rd in a 2 horse race? 



Hmm, pie.

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I guess that's what separates Germany from a world class team. Germany dominates, doesn't score and loses. France doesn't score, wins 2:0.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

Wow, so many here that seem completely biased and even twist the truth about FIFA rules (same as UEFA rules), claiming that it doesn't matter if handling the ball is intentional or not (although those of you who are French I have sympathy towards, since it's a man's duty to stand up for his own nation).

http://www.sportskeeda.com/football/understanding-handball-rule-what-is-deliberate-offense-what-is-not

Let’s try to understand the handball rule in football. The FIFA rule book (Laws of the Game 2014/2015) defines it as:

“Handling the ball involves a deliberate act of a player making contact with the ball with his hand or arm. The referee must take the following into consideration:

• the movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand)

• the distance between the opponent and the ball (unexpected ball)

• the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an infringement

• touching the ball with an object held in the hand (clothing, shinguard, etc.) counts as an infringement

• hitting the ball with a thrown object (boot, shinguard, etc.) counts as an infringement”

The rulebook states that a player should be penalized (mostly by a free-kick or penalty or a maximum of a yellow card) in the scenario where he/ she deliberately handles the ball to ensure that the play is favourable for his/her team – either to retain possession/ keep advantage or score a goal.



The biggest Swedish magazine refers to a German magazine among others:

Tysklands EM är över.

Gårdagens 2–0-förlust mot Frankrike kom efter två mål av Antoine Griezmann, men efteråt handlade eftersnacket till stor del om domaren Nicola Rizzolis insats.

1–0-målet kom på straff efter en hands på Bastian Schweinsteiger och vid det andra målet tyckte målvakten Manuel Neuer att han blev trängd.

– Alla var chockade, jag fick lugna ner spelarna i omklädningsrummet, erkände förbundskaptenen Jogi Löw om straffsituationen.
”Smakar dåligt”

Och från tyskt håll höjs nu röster för att Rizzoli inte skulle ha dömt matchen.

Tyska tidningen Express, baserad i Köln, lanserar konspirationsteorin att det skedde som en hämnd för att Tyskland slog ut Italien på straffar i kvartsfinalen – beordrad av italienaren Pierluigi Collina, Uefas domarchef.

”Var det bara en slump av Uefa? Eller föredrog de kanske att se värdnationen i finalen?”, frågar sig Express.

Tidningen skriver att Rizzoli inte hade sin bästa kväll och menar att den tvivelaktiga insatsen kan vara en hämnd mot det tyska landslaget.

”Bara rubriken smakar dåligt. Att Nicola Rizzoli från Italien – som vi skickade ut i kvartsfinalen – skulle döma semifinalen”, skriver tidningen.
”Slog ut Italien – fick Rizzoli”

Även tv-kanalen ARD:s sportprofil Waldemar Hartmann, 68, är inne på samma linje om att det inte bara var en slump från Uefas sida.

– Vi slog ut italienarna och då fick vi Rizzoli. Jag tänkte redan innan matchen: ”Han kommer inte att blåsa för oss i dag”, säger Hartmann enligt Focus.
-------

Translation snippets:

"Everyone was shocked"
"Bad taste"
"Did UEFA prefer to have the host in the finals?"
"I thought already before the game, this referee is not going to blow in Germany's favor today"



Come on, dude. Even after the penalty, Germany could've and should've made a comeback, easily. They didn't. Neuer instead decided to foolishly gift the french another goal.

I want the French to lose. I am biased just like that. But they didn't deserve to.



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Easy solution. I'm all for this.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

Slimebeast said:

Wow, so many here that seem completely biased and even twist the truth about FIFA rules (same as UEFA rules), claiming that it doesn't matter if handling the ball is intentional or not (although those of you who are French I have sympathy towards, since it's a man's duty to stand up for his own nation).

http://www.sportskeeda.com/football/understanding-handball-rule-what-is-deliberate-offense-what-is-not

Let’s try to understand the handball rule in football. The FIFA rule book (Laws of the Game 2014/2015) defines it as:

“Handling the ball involves a deliberate act of a player making contact with the ball with his hand or arm. The referee must take the following into consideration:

• the movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand)

• the distance between the opponent and the ball (unexpected ball)

• the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an infringement

• touching the ball with an object held in the hand (clothing, shinguard, etc.) counts as an infringement

• hitting the ball with a thrown object (boot, shinguard, etc.) counts as an infringement”

The rulebook states that a player should be penalized (mostly by a free-kick or penalty or a maximum of a yellow card) in the scenario where he/ she deliberately handles the ball to ensure that the play is favourable for his/her team – either to retain possession/ keep advantage or score a goal.

How do you define deliberate then? 

- The german realizes Evra is going to head shot the ball towards Neuer's goal (Which he did)

- He starts to dash towards the ball while suddenly raising his right hand above his head (while would you raise your hand above your head while starting to run?)

- Still watching closely where the ball is going to fall he jumps towards the spot close to Evra's head (because he already knows Evra is perfeclty located and he can't do nothing about that).

- He makes a fist with his right hand only (no fist for his left hand) and look away at the last moment to make as if he didn't know his hand was going to punch the ball

- He perfectly punches the ball just after Evra's successfully hit the ball.

It was a deliberate punch from the german like any goalkeeper would have done. Just look at the videos from different angles. It's DELIBERATE which is why he got a yellow card.

From the front we can see he aims for the ball with his first (no fist for left hand) and look away at the last moment:

https://gfycat.com/HandsomeFrailIaerismetalmark

From the back, look closely when he sees is late then starts to run while raising his right hand:

https://streamable.com/dxsx



LurkerJ said:
Come on, dude. Even after the penalty, Germany could've and should've made a comeback, easily. They didn't. Neuer instead decided to foolishly gift the french another goal.

I want the French to lose. I am biased just like that. But they didn't deserve to.

Yes I understand that view, that it's perfectly possible Germany wouldn't have won anyway. I do recognize they both are super quality teams and about equal in skill. I don't aim to take away from France' excellent performance per se. And I'm not a Germany fan at all and whoever had won the game I will passionately root on Portugal on Sunday.

But I want football to be genuine.

This huge disappointment of mine has almost everything to do with the question if there is still significant curruption and rotten culture in UEFA (and indirectly FIFA), even to the point that it can affect the outcome of a semi-final. And to some degree an analysis on how strong there is an element of psychological pressure on referees to cater to powerful nations or the host.

At this point in the thread I'm just defending myself here coz masses of people attacked my view of the penalty situation and expressed all sorts of ridicule. Therefore I needed to defend my pride and reputation and offer some more evidence and counter-views.



globalisateur said:
Slimebeast said:

Wow, so many here that seem completely biased and even twist the truth about FIFA rules (same as UEFA rules), claiming that it doesn't matter if handling the ball is intentional or not (although those of you who are French I have sympathy towards, since it's a man's duty to stand up for his own nation).

http://www.sportskeeda.com/football/understanding-handball-rule-what-is-deliberate-offense-what-is-not

Let’s try to understand the handball rule in football. The FIFA rule book (Laws of the Game 2014/2015) defines it as:

“Handling the ball involves a deliberate act of a player making contact with the ball with his hand or arm. The referee must take the following into consideration:

• the movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand)

• the distance between the opponent and the ball (unexpected ball)

• the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an infringement

• touching the ball with an object held in the hand (clothing, shinguard, etc.) counts as an infringement

• hitting the ball with a thrown object (boot, shinguard, etc.) counts as an infringement”

The rulebook states that a player should be penalized (mostly by a free-kick or penalty or a maximum of a yellow card) in the scenario where he/ she deliberately handles the ball to ensure that the play is favourable for his/her team – either to retain possession/ keep advantage or score a goal.

How do you define deliberate then? 

- The german realizes Evra is going to head shot the ball towards Neuer's goal (Which he did)

- He starts to dash towards the ball while suddenly raising his right hand above his head (while would you raise your hand above your head while starting to run?)

- Still watching closely where the ball is going to fall he jumps towards the spot close to Evra's head (because he already knows Evra is perfeclty located and he can't do nothing about that).

- He makes a fist with his right hand only (no fist for his left hand) and look away at the last moment to make as if he didn't know his hand was going to punch the ball

- He perfectly punches the ball just after Evra's successfully hit the ball.

It was a deliberate punch from the german like any goalkeeper would have done. Just look at the videos from different angles. It's DELIBERATE which is why he got a yellow card.

From the front we can see he aims for the ball with his first (no fist for left hand) and look away at the last moment:

https://gfycat.com/HandsomeFrailIaerismetalmark

From the back, look closely when he sees is late then starts to run while raising his right hand:

https://streamable.com/dxsx

Good post. I certainly agree it is hard to define what is intentional and what is not.

But look, my post was to correct people who claimed that it was undoubtedly a major penalty because the FIFA rules say that it doesn't matter if there is intention or not. But that information was false, since the rules actually clearly say the opposite: it does indeed very much matter if the hand action is intentional or not.

When I study this case it's funny because from some angles it looks so accidental and from some angles intentional.

And when there is doubt, and in this case the referee should have felt very strong doubt, one shouldn't blow for a penalty in such a decisive moment. This is my key argument. Not that I pretend to be able to decide how much intention Schweinsteiger had.

There is sort of a golden rule in all sports, a saying that universally goes something like this:
"let the players decide the outcome".

That saying gets thrown around all the time in football. Every ref knows this rule in his spinal core. But it's funny in this thread, it's as if nobody has even heard about this concept! Instead many people are seriously arguing that "if there is a foul, the referee must always blow the whistle", which is absolutely ridiculous. It absolutely goes against the reality of modern football. Only somebody ignorant to sports could say such a thing. So I almost feel like an alien here and it's quite honestly a bit bizarre.

But very good post by you man, you provided a logical and sound analysis about the situation in the game!



Dadrik said:
Slimebeast said:

This is starting to feel bizarre. The only thing you seem able to see is the foul. It's like you are totally unaware of the other factors I described, the fairness and balance of the game and even politics.

Didn't you see the situation? There was no goal chance, had the hand not deflected the ball it still hadn't become a scoring chance. Didn't you see all the players in the penalty box just standing calmly for 10 seconds, nobody waving their hands or anything. Nobody expected or demanded a penalty

Stopping the ball irregularily 6m away from the goal isn't something to be ignored. You really just need to accept this.
"But the politics, but the balance"

Nah.

I have to quote this. I laughed so loud last night when I read it. That was so much me.

Love humour like that no matter if it wasn't intended.