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Forums - Sports Discussion - The Football Thread - 17/18 Season

pastro243 said:
Slimebeast said:

But if Uruguay, Chile and Argentina can be producing elite talent year after year, why not other countries with similar economies, size of population and interest in football? Like Colombia, Peru, Australia, China, India, Japan, Korea, Iran, Tunisia, Saudi-Arabia, Algeria, Marocco, Egypt, South Africa and Turkey.

And if you consider how damn talented black players are genetically (in France, Belgium, England, Portugal and Holland the black population is only 1-2% but they make up 20-30% of all the professional football players) one would think that at least a couple of Nigeria, Ghana, Zambia, Senegal, Mali, Ivory Coast and Cameroon would take steps like Brazil and Mexico did as poor nations in the past and join the elite of world football.

And moneywise, the national teams of countries like USA, Japan, Korea, India and China are performing much worse compared with how much money there are in their domestic leagues.

But no, it's all about Europe.

A few things

- As a chilean I can tell you that we can't produce much elite players. Our current team is a "golden generation" that is made mostly of U20 2005 and 2007 generation, same team that was youngest in southafrica 2010 and one of the oldest in Copa Centenario 2016. From those we have our true world class players that are Vidal and Sánchez and then come the likes of Bravo, Medel and Aránguiz. After that we haven't been able to produce much more. 

- I think Colombia have a way bigger pool of talent than Chile actually. I think our first 11 is better but they have a better squad and more talented players overall.

- Argentina, Uruguay and Chile are not comparable IMO. Population wise, Argentina are 40 million, Chile 17 and Uruguay 3. Talent wise, what Argentina produces is massive, and Uruguay for it's size could be considered the very best. Economy wise Argentina is a mess, Chile and Uruguay are more centered. 

- In terms of CONMEBOL, I think you can divide in the best that are still Argentina and Brazil, then come the good that are Chile, Uruguay and Colombia, the mid Ecuador and Paraguay and the lower Peru, Venezuela and Bolivia. Mexico and USA also have the problem that their competition sucks, Concacaf sucks and Copa Centenario showed it, they should do what Australia did and get out if they want to get better. 

You're the light of this thread when it comes to South American Football... you clearly understand the scenario as a whole. Great post.



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Wow, can't believe Wales won that match. Unfortunately I couldn't watch this game but looks like I missed a really exciting match .



    

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BraLoD said:
LipeJJ said:

You're the light of this thread when it comes to South American Football... you clearly understand the scenario as a whole. Great post.

But Brazil sucks nowdays...

It does. But he didn't say Brazil is great as a team nowadays... he said it still produces a lot of great players, and that's true. While there are no Ronaldos or Romarios, we still factory a good amount of good players compared to most countries. Had we have a decent confederation and a coach in the past years, we would surely still be competitive in the worldwide scenario.



Bet with Teeqoz for 2 weeks of avatar and sig control that Super Mario Odyssey would ship more than 7m on its first 2 months. The game shipped 9.07m, so I won

Ka-pi96 said:
Slimebeast said:

But if Uruguay, Chile and Argentina can be producing elite talent year after year, why not other countries with similar economies, size of population and interest in football? Like Colombia, Peru, Australia, China, India, Japan, Korea, Iran, Tunisia, Saudi-Arabia, Algeria, Marocco, Egypt, South Africa and Turkey.

And if you consider how damn talented black players are genetically (in France, Belgium, England, Portugal and Holland the black population is only 1-2% but they make up 20-30% of all the professional football players) one would think that at least a couple of Nigeria, Ghana, Zambia, Senegal, Mali, Ivory Coast and Cameroon would take steps like Brazil and Mexico did as poor nations in the past and join the elite of world football.

And moneywise, the national teams of countries like USA, Japan, Korea, India and China are performing much worse compared with how much money there are in their domestic leagues.

But no, it's all about Europe.

I'd say Colombia have produced some good talent in recent years though, Peru not so much, but Colombia have. Although it is worth noting that the economy in Colombia/Peru is a fair bit worse off than in Argentina or Uruguay.

As for the others, are they really as interested in football as the top European/South American countries? I don't think so. Australians and South Africans would rather play Rugby or Cricket. The Chinese are usually one of the top olympic medal earners so it's obvious where their top atheletes are going (although with all the investment they currently putting in to football who knows how that could change things for their national team in the long term). India is obsessed with cricket, if they liked football as much as they did cricket then they'd have a good team, but they don't. Japan & Korea prefer to play baseball rather than football. There have been some great players of Moroccan/Algerian origin (they just usually end up playing for France ). Egypt and Tunisia are significantly poorer than the top South American countries, their economies are actually at a similar level to Peru. As for Saudi I'd assume there just isn't as much interest there as elsewhere. It seems most of the Arab investment in football is coming from the significantly smaller UAE or Qatar rather than Saudi.

For a lot of African countries there just isn't the infrastructure there for a lot of players. Brazil may have been a fairly poor country when they rose to the elite but they did have a top league. No African countries really have that. It seems a lot of the money invested in African youth football is from European teams so the African players often end up eligible to play for a European country as well after moving there at a young age. Although there have been times where it looked like an African country could emerge as a great footballing nation, so maybe it will happen sooner or later.

As for Turkey... that's harder to explain. Maybe it's the fault of Germany stealing all the good Turkish footballers though

Interesting detailed reply. So with all these nations it's just not really there. It's either the national economy inhibiting the development (Africa, Peru, Colombia) or it's a lack of interest (Asia, Saudi). While I've heard that they're crazy about watching the World Cup in all over Asia, it simply doesn't seem to generate enough kids to start playing football for real. And I forgot about that damn Asutralian rules football and rugby which naturally hampers their football culture.

It's cool that you at least agree that Turkey underperforms relative to its potential. I read an article before the Euro Cup where when speaking of all the players in the Turkish team that have been educated in Germany and Holland, a Turkish coach was very self critical and said that the Turkish football culture and their youth system in particular is severely lacking. He said that if a young Lionel Messi had been turkish, they would have seen him as a "weak dwarf". But that they're now planning to invest in more football academies.



pastro243 said:
Slimebeast said:

But if Uruguay, Chile and Argentina can be producing elite talent year after year, why not other countries with similar economies, size of population and interest in football? Like Colombia, Peru, Australia, China, India, Japan, Korea, Iran, Tunisia, Saudi-Arabia, Algeria, Marocco, Egypt, South Africa and Turkey.

And if you consider how damn talented black players are genetically (in France, Belgium, England, Portugal and Holland the black population is only 1-2% but they make up 20-30% of all the professional football players) one would think that at least a couple of Nigeria, Ghana, Zambia, Senegal, Mali, Ivory Coast and Cameroon would take steps like Brazil and Mexico did as poor nations in the past and join the elite of world football.

And moneywise, the national teams of countries like USA, Japan, Korea, India and China are performing much worse compared with how much money there are in their domestic leagues.

But no, it's all about Europe.

A few things

- As a chilean I can tell you that we can't produce much elite players. Our current team is a "golden generation" that is made mostly of U20 2005 and 2007 generation, same team that was youngest in southafrica 2010 and one of the oldest in Copa Centenario 2016. From those we have our true world class players that are Vidal and Sánchez and then come the likes of Bravo, Medel and Aránguiz. After that we haven't been able to produce much more. 

- I think Colombia have a way bigger pool of talent than Chile actually. I think our first 11 is better but they have a better squad and more talented players overall.

- Argentina, Uruguay and Chile are not comparable IMO. Population wise, Argentina are 40 million, Chile 17 and Uruguay 3. Talent wise, what Argentina produces is massive, and Uruguay for it's size could be considered the very best. Economy wise Argentina is a mess, Chile and Uruguay are more centered. 

- In terms of CONMEBOL, I think you can divide in the best that are still Argentina and Brazil, then come the good that are Chile, Uruguay and Colombia, the mid Ecuador and Paraguay and the lower Peru, Venezuela and Bolivia. Mexico and USA also have the problem that their competition sucks, Concacaf sucks and Copa Centenario showed it, they should do what Australia did and get out if they want to get better. 

Oh, a golden generation you say. I asked myself that back in 2010 and 2014 World cups, is this a temporary success for Chile for maybe 6 or 7 years or did they really take the next step and became an elite football nation for the rest of my lifetime?

How popular is your domestic football league?



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Slimebeast said:
pastro243 said:

A few things

- As a chilean I can tell you that we can't produce much elite players. Our current team is a "golden generation" that is made mostly of U20 2005 and 2007 generation, same team that was youngest in southafrica 2010 and one of the oldest in Copa Centenario 2016. From those we have our true world class players that are Vidal and Sánchez and then come the likes of Bravo, Medel and Aránguiz. After that we haven't been able to produce much more. 

- I think Colombia have a way bigger pool of talent than Chile actually. I think our first 11 is better but they have a better squad and more talented players overall.

- Argentina, Uruguay and Chile are not comparable IMO. Population wise, Argentina are 40 million, Chile 17 and Uruguay 3. Talent wise, what Argentina produces is massive, and Uruguay for it's size could be considered the very best. Economy wise Argentina is a mess, Chile and Uruguay are more centered. 

- In terms of CONMEBOL, I think you can divide in the best that are still Argentina and Brazil, then come the good that are Chile, Uruguay and Colombia, the mid Ecuador and Paraguay and the lower Peru, Venezuela and Bolivia. Mexico and USA also have the problem that their competition sucks, Concacaf sucks and Copa Centenario showed it, they should do what Australia did and get out if they want to get better. 

Oh, a golden generation you say. I asked myself that back in 2010 and 2014 World cups, is this a temporary success for Chile for maybe 6 or 7 years or did they really take the next step and became an elite football nation for the rest of my lifetime?

How popular is your domestic football league?

It's something strange, most people follow domestic league and champions have big celebrations but we don't have high attendances to stadiums. This is mostly because 2 or 3 teams gather most fans (like half of the country must be from Colo Colo, 25% of U de Chile and a lot less from U. Católica) and the rest are mid/small teams from other cities (small compared to Santiago) and colonies (Italian or Spaniard). Most people have a club they follow though.


Chile has always been able to produce high technical level players and play skillfull/pretty football but we never won anything. To put in perspective, Chile had never won anything before Copa América 2015. We had 4 Copa finals, a 3rd place in world cup 62 and some world class players every now and then like Zamorano, Salas and Elias Figueroa. Even with that, we are 4th in conmebol in historic world cup performances after Brazil, Argentina and Uruguay(20 overall I think) but medals and trophies never came up until now. 



LipeJJ said:
BraLoD said:

But Brazil sucks nowdays...

It does. But he didn't say Brazil is great as a team nowadays... he said it still produces a lot of great players, and that's true. While there are no Ronaldos or Romarios, we still factory a good amount of good players compared to most countries. Had we have a decent confederation and a coach in the past years, we would surely still be competitive in the worldwide scenario.

This is what I meant. Brazil still produces a hell lot of talent and even the World cup failure team made it to semifinals and finished 4th. And not so long ago Brazil won 2 confederation cups (one against Spain in the final) and are still played like you play a big team.

People get drunk with results sometimes, current Chile is what you have with a mix of good talent, decent management (we've had a bad coach and a lot of corruption in our federation but good decisions were made that saved us. This compared to the shit most federations have in south america) and a little bit of luck. But still, we are not more than Colombia and Uruguay, and very far from Brazil and Argentina, who IMO are top in the world and results would show it if they had decent management to channel so much talent. 



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Ka-pi96 said:
Slimebeast said:

But if Uruguay, Chile and Argentina can be producing elite talent year after year, why not other countries with similar economies, size of population and interest in football? Like Colombia, Peru, Australia, China, India, Japan, Korea, Iran, Tunisia, Saudi-Arabia, Algeria, Marocco, Egypt, South Africa and Turkey.

And if you consider how damn talented black players are genetically (in France, Belgium, England, Portugal and Holland the black population is only 1-2% but they make up 20-30% of all the professional football players) one would think that at least a couple of Nigeria, Ghana, Zambia, Senegal, Mali, Ivory Coast and Cameroon would take steps like Brazil and Mexico did as poor nations in the past and join the elite of world football.

And moneywise, the national teams of countries like USA, Japan, Korea, India and China are performing much worse compared with how much money there are in their domestic leagues.

But no, it's all about Europe.

I'd say Colombia have produced some good talent in recent years though, Peru not so much, but Colombia have. Although it is worth noting that the economy in Colombia/Peru is a fair bit worse off than in Argentina or Uruguay.

As for the others, are they really as interested in football as the top European/South American countries? I don't think so. Australians and South Africans would rather play Rugby or Cricket. The Chinese are usually one of the top olympic medal earners so it's obvious where their top atheletes are going (although with all the investment they currently putting in to football who knows how that could change things for their national team in the long term). India is obsessed with cricket, if they liked football as much as they did cricket then they'd have a good team, but they don't. Japan & Korea prefer to play baseball rather than football. There have been some great players of Moroccan/Algerian origin (they just usually end up playing for France ). Egypt and Tunisia are significantly poorer than the top South American countries, their economies are actually at a similar level to Peru. As for Saudi I'd assume there just isn't as much interest there as elsewhere. It seems most of the Arab investment in football is coming from the significantly smaller UAE or Qatar rather than Saudi.

For a lot of African countries there just isn't the infrastructure there for a lot of players. Brazil may have been a fairly poor country when they rose to the elite but they did have a top league. No African countries really have that. It seems a lot of the money invested in African youth football is from European teams so the African players often end up eligible to play for a European country as well after moving there at a young age. Although there have been times where it looked like an African country could emerge as a great footballing nation, so maybe it will happen sooner or later.

As for Turkey... that's harder to explain. Maybe it's the fault of Germany stealing all the good Turkish footballers though

The only reason Turkey has been a somewhat decent team in the past two decades is because of all the German-born Turkish players that learned how to play at a high level during their youth in German clubs. Turkey needs a much better youth system.



pastro243 said:
LipeJJ said:

It does. But he didn't say Brazil is great as a team nowadays... he said it still produces a lot of great players, and that's true. While there are no Ronaldos or Romarios, we still factory a good amount of good players compared to most countries. Had we have a decent confederation and a coach in the past years, we would surely still be competitive in the worldwide scenario.

This is what I meant. Brazil still produces a hell lot of talent and even the World cup failure team made it to semifinals and finished 4th. And not so long ago Brazil won 2 confederation cups (one against Spain in the final) and are still played like you play a big team.

People get drunk with results sometimes, current Chile is what you have with a mix of good talent, decent management (we've had a bad coach and a lot of corruption in our federation but good decisions were made that saved us. This compared to the shit most federations have in south america) and a little bit of luck. But still, we are not more than Colombia and Uruguay, and very far from Brazil and Argentina, who IMO are top in the world and results would show it if they had decent management to channel so much talent. 

Very true.Very little countries in the world produces as much talent as Brazil and Argentina.But our problem is that we cannot find good coach,for years now.