Kyros said: "1080p still looks better with 4xAA over 2xAA. Any PC gamer knows that." Yeah but 1080p 2AA looks better than 720p 4AA so it is no sacrifice "If hardware wasn't some kind of limitation, we would be seeing more true 1080p games than we do," Arg no we wouldn't. Todays consoles are perfectly able to display 1080p games (as year old PCs were able to display 1600*1200 games). But of course the per-Pixel operations for the scene would have to be halfed against 720p (double the pixels). So a developer has the options: a) a game with twice the per-pixel operations (like shader effects etc.) for 720p or less per-pixel operations for 1080p. This has nothing to do with absolute power and would hold true for much more powerful systems. The ratio would still hold true. Since the number of customers with 1080p displays is much smaller than the number of customers with 720p he would essentially give most customers a worse game if targeting 1080p. Thats all, if there were more people with 1080p displays the situation would be different. Is this too complicated?

It is a sacrifice, whether you want to admit it or not. If given the ability, Polyphony would absolutely run 4xAA @ 1080p, just like PC developers have been over the past few years. It's a no-brainer that makes the game look better.

If 1080p is so overblown and isn't worth marketing to such a small demographic, why did Sony spend millions of dollars to convince potential PS3 owners that their new machine would run 1080p/60fps and then fail to deliver it with even their biggest blockbuster games?

For example... The garage in GT5p runs at true 1080p... The game itself runs at upscaled 1080p with 2xAA. The 720p version runs at 4xAA. So, the more hardware intensive the action is in the game, the less visual doo-dads you get with the game.

Sorry, your argument doesn't make sense. If 1080p is such a small market, why bother making 1080p games in the first place? And those games that are 1080p, why do they all contain a small environment (basketball games) or are far less hardware-intensive than every other game that sports a 720p resolution? If 1080p was so easy to do on this hardware, why are some games not even running at 720p, but instead are upscaled from 600p/620p? Shit, apparently even 720p is a tough task for some developers. Good developers, too.

I meant exclusive titles.

are you sure Darkness isn't 1080p native?  Source please, I would like to know.

I'm sure NGS is 1080p also.  

"It is a sacrifice, whether you want to admit it or not. If given the ability, Polyphony would absolutely run 4xAA @ 1080p"

??? A sacrifice compared to what? Why shouldn't they use 16xAA or resolutions like 2048p? You always have to compare to something else, and compared to 720p 4AA, 1080p 2AA is a clear improvement not a "sacrifice".

'"If 1080p is so overblown and isn't worth marketing to such a small demographic, why did Sony spend millions of dollars to convince potential PS3 owners that their new machine would run 1080p/60fps"

Because marketing is bullshit? Besides the more people have 1080p TVs the more games will support it (and Sony sells them so its in their interest to promote them)

"Sorry, your argument doesn't make sense. If 1080p is such a small market, why bother making 1080p games in the first place?"

I thought you were trying to convince me that there are almost no 1080p games available? So I do not understand the question. But for example if a game is vertex bound and not pixel bound (has more polygons less shaders) they can make the resolution higher easily without sacrificing anything in 720p. And if they can make 1080p without having problem (for example in less detailled environments like the garage) why shouldn't they do it? I do not get your problems.

"why are some games not even running at 720p, but instead are upscaled from 600p/620p?"

Because devs apparently decided that this looks better than 720p with less shader operations? What some people do not get is that resolution alone doesn't mean shit.

In the end its easy, if you look at God of War2 and see the improvements to First-year PS2 titles you see that there is plenty of room for graphical improvement. In one or two years when developers are really comfortable with the PS3(and 360) and people will have more 1080p TVs we will also see more games supporting 1080p. I think thats a safe prognosis. 

Here's one. I can't seem to find the original article about it.

http://www.makeyougohmm.com/20070721/4652/ 

So, Daniel is the final word on this??

Search more on this site and your see the list I posted

http://www.makeyougohmm.com/ps3-1080p-games/ 

4xAA is used at higher than 1080p resolutions on PC games all the time. Your 2048p comment doesn't make sense because, while resolutions of that size are available on PC monitors, they don't exist in TVs. Whereas 1080p is readily available. If the hardware could do it and no sacrifices needed to be made, why is 1080p on GT5p 2xAA? What would be the reason for cutting the 4xAA out of 720p in the 1080p version?

You're telling me that hardware is not the limitation, market size for 1080p is. So, why do we have 1080p games at all? And the games that are 1080p, why are they less hardware-intensive than their 600/720p brethren? Smaller environments, less dynamic lighting, etc.

I understand the resolution is not the be-all, end-all of game design. But, as you said earlier, you get less detail in shaders and such at 1080p than you do at 720p. If the system had more integrated shaders, while the ratio would hold true, the developer would then be allowed to put more detail into 1080p, making any gain from 720p negligible. That's a sacrifice based on hardware. It's also a design decision by many devs, but the two are not mutually exclusive. 

Absolutely. I agree that, as developers know the systems better, we will see more 1080p games. But... Doesn't that go right back to the entire "hardware limitation" argument in the first place again? As developers learn to tweak the system more, 1080p will appear more frequently because they learn how to better get around the system limitations. I don't think the 1080p television market has anything to do with it and your argument is contradictory at points. You admit that visual sacrifices/design choices (shaders) have to be made at 1080p and that true 1080p is currently reserved for less epic games. But then you state that developers only program for 720p because the 1080p market is too small. It doesn't make sense. Either choices are being made based on the ability of the hardware or they are not.

There's an article about it out there somewhere. I've seen it. I would look more but Googling a common word like "Darkness" is a PITA. 

Your best bet is to search Beyond3D. That's where the guy who broke all these resolutions hangs out. 

For me, I would rather have a game in 720p with higher framerate than in 1080p. Its just like changing the res on a PC game. The lower the res the higher the framereate will be. I have a 1920x1200 monitor and I will usually put the res down to 1680x1050 so that my frame rate is better.