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Forums - Politics - Obama: Ignoring Russian Aggression Would Have Global Consequences

 

What does Obama hope to accomplish? alterior motive?

I will post below. 29 14.29%
 
To calm the situation down 67 33.00%
 
See results 100 49.26%
 
Total:196
Norris2k on 02 April 2014
Kasz216 said:
Norris2k said:
Kasz216 said:
Norris2k said:

 

 

Soviet Union, 40's, Stalin, collaboration with nazi, post war, it's all over, we are talking about Russia, Putin, the current events, we are in 2014, we need example from the past 20 years, right ? You are mixing everything, Tartars doesn't live in a fear of ethnic cleansing that would make them neglect any economical advantage Russia offers. That's what you said, and that's a pure lie for propaganda sake.


That's not exactly how the Tatar leaders were saying it... and as an armenian who knows a lot of armenians... yeah lasting memories of ethnic cleansing transcend governments and stick to the people who perpetrated them.

Sure, it lasts long or forever, but still there are different patterns depending of the intensity of the crime and the way it's dealt after that. Armenia is the worst case, because it's a pure genocide (plannified plain murder), it's massive (60~70% of the population), and it's not settled as the current governement is still denying it. Which is very different from the Tatars : it's 1/10th of Armenia death number, it's mostly death on deportation, on the charge of collaboration, by the URSS. Russia and Putin aknowledge both that it happened and that it was wrong.



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mai on 02 April 2014

Kasz216 said:

You expected a Balkinization due to ethnic groups like the Tatars whole cocked wanting to stay inedpendent.   Crimea says 40% of them did....

They're around 15% of the population.

Yet 95-97% of the vote was still to join Russia?

And one more thing on Tatars issue, since I have much more in common with them than probably everyone in this thread put together.

I didn't expect Balkanization per se, with Tatars minority it's virtually impossible given their spread over the territory of Crimea. As you see they avoid urbanized areas, but their spread over the rural areas is more or less even and range 25-30%:

What I said is blodshed possible due to ethnical tensions artificially supported by Majlis and Kurultay, which supposed to represent all Crimean Tatars but hardly represent 15% of them, less than 2% of total population, as per recent vote in Rada (here's Abduraimov interview I mentioned earlier on the matter, in Russian). These 2% I expect to be strictly nationalistic, others -- not so much.

Referendum data broken down by region doesn't show any significant difference in votings.



Captain_Tom on 02 April 2014
Norris2k said:
Captain_Tom said:
Rab said:
Captain_Tom said:
mutantsushi said:
Rab said:

hmm "Europe's borders cannot be redrawn by force", Kosovo supported by the US military breaks away from Serbia 

I think Putin feels justified 

B-b-but... the US *SAID* Kosovo can't be taken for precedent!

But yeah, this is the US that says it isn't subject to laws against genocide,
and has a law authorizing them to invade the Netherlands if a US citizen is brought there to be tried by the ICJ.

Don't worry, the US has a legal theory explaining how exactly the Kiev coup met the legal requirements of 3/4 majority for impeachment of president and procedural requirements for consulation with supreme court.  They really do.  It's just classified.

LOL some people just make me laugh so much.  Yeah, the Kosovo situation is just like the Crimean one!

Yeah, Russia hasn't bombed any cities


Yeah the Ukrainians aren't commiting Genocide.  Dear lord do you people live on the same planet as the rest of us?

So, being genocided is a prerequisite before such action is taken ? Is it based on an international regulation or law ? "Sorry you are not dead enough, it would be illegal".

Yes.  Genocide is is a violation of international law, and outside nations have a right to intervention.  This was a  Resolution adopted by the UN general assembly on December 11th, 1946.  That took me 5 min. of research to find.

Eddie may study international law, but it doesn't take college courses to know that Russia is in direct violation of it.  It only takes 5 minutes of research.  



Captain_Tom on 02 April 2014
nanarchy said:

Please.  Europe did not deploy soldiers into the Ukraine.  If Crimea wants to become part of Russia that is fine.  But Russia clearly violated international law when it sent in its soldiers.  (I am currently studdying international law, this is not an opinion).

Actually it most definitely IS an opinion as it all hinges on the legitimacy of the current ukrainian government which is arguably non existant as such Crimea can be said to have been within there rights to invite in the Russian Army (who actually were already within Crimea anyway).

Yeah I know it is debatible whether or not it was wrong for Russia to send in troops.  However it was illegal for them to order the Ukrainian soldiers to leave with an ultimatum.  An ultimatum signals a declaration of war under international custom law.  You would know this if you studied it, but you don't.  Still you and others will continue to spout nonsense...

Sorry but no. As russia's occupation there is debatible, so is the decision to order them to leave. If assume that the ukrainian government is illegitimate then Crimea government being the only legitmate government (and by extension Russia) do absolutely have the right to order them to leave. I don't study law, but I fortunately/unfortunately work with a whole room full of people that do.

Omg people.  The government of the Ukraine is not illegitimate.  The ex-president of the Ukraine was legally impeached following Ukraine's constitution.  

Also you gave no reason why "If Russia's intervention is debatible, then so is them ordering a country out of its own land."  They are two very different things.  At first Russia could argue that they were there to make sure the people of the Crimea were not under threat of violence.  However they never were, and the Ukrainian soldiers out of the area was completily pre-mature.

You know the ICJ is there for a reason.  This is the type of thing they handle.  It was not Russia's call, and they had no right to do it.



Norris2k on 02 April 2014
Captain_Tom said:
Norris2k said:
Captain_Tom said:
Rab said:
Captain_Tom said:
mutantsushi said:
Rab said:

hmm "Europe's borders cannot be redrawn by force", Kosovo supported by the US military breaks away from Serbia 

I think Putin feels justified 

B-b-but... the US *SAID* Kosovo can't be taken for precedent!

But yeah, this is the US that says it isn't subject to laws against genocide,
and has a law authorizing them to invade the Netherlands if a US citizen is brought there to be tried by the ICJ.

Don't worry, the US has a legal theory explaining how exactly the Kiev coup met the legal requirements of 3/4 majority for impeachment of president and procedural requirements for consulation with supreme court.  They really do.  It's just classified.

LOL some people just make me laugh so much.  Yeah, the Kosovo situation is just like the Crimean one!

Yeah, Russia hasn't bombed any cities


Yeah the Ukrainians aren't commiting Genocide.  Dear lord do you people live on the same planet as the rest of us?

So, being genocided is a prerequisite before such action is taken ? Is it based on an international regulation or law ? "Sorry you are not dead enough, it would be illegal".

Yes.  Genocide is is a violation of international law, and outside nations have a right to intervention.  This was a  Resolution adopted by the UN general assembly on December 11th, 1946.  That took me 5 min. of research to find.

Eddie may study international law, but it doesn't take college courses to know that Russia is in direct violation of it.  It only takes 5 minutes of research.  

As far as I read it it doesn't give a direct right to make war, bomb a whole country, and make the area independant. It doesnt nullify others reasons to. And it talk about prevention... that's quite an open door when governement is part fascist and regional linguistic rights are removed.



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mai on 02 April 2014

And on recent Lavrov-Kerry meeting in Paris. Kerry refused to make a statement, but Lavrov did. It seems they've found common ground after all and sealed the deal. So constitutional reform, federelization, break ties with radicals etc. -- i.e. more or less Kremlin's way ;)

That's the real life representation of the situation when you start pulling the strings and it goes horribly wrong -- smth heavy that has been attached to those strings falls on you. But Obama doesn't care, it's his final term anyway.



Sharu on 02 April 2014
Captain_Tom said:
nanarchy said:

Omg people.  The government of the Ukraine is not illegitimate.  The ex-president of the Ukraine was legally impeached following Ukraine's constitution.  

 


That is totally untrue.



KingofTrolls on 02 April 2014
mai said:

And on the recent Lavrov-Kerry meeting in Paris. Kerry refused to make a statement, but Lavrov did. It seems they've found common ground after all and sealed the deal. So constitutional reform, federelization, break ties with radicals etc. -- i.e. more or less Kremlin's way ;)

That's the real life representation of the situation when you start pulling the strings and it goes horribly wrong -- smth heavy that has been attached to those strings falls on you. But Obama doesn't care, it's his final term anyway.

Putin - I wanna Crimea !

West - We wont let u take it, it will be biggest NATO fail etc !!!

Putin - OK i took Crimea already, now I wanna East Ukraine !!!

West - u Soviet monster, how dare u !!! PLS stahp right now !

Putin - ok I just took Crimea and go home :D

West - Lets party, Putin leaves East Ukraine alone ! Victory !

Putin - ;)

 

Really I love them :D



Captain_Tom on 02 April 2014
Norris2k said:
Captain_Tom said:
Norris2k said:
Captain_Tom said:
Rab said:
Captain_Tom said:
mutantsushi said:
Rab said:

hmm "Europe's borders cannot be redrawn by force", Kosovo supported by the US military breaks away from Serbia 

I think Putin feels justified 

B-b-but... the US *SAID* Kosovo can't be taken for precedent!

But yeah, this is the US that says it isn't subject to laws against genocide,
and has a law authorizing them to invade the Netherlands if a US citizen is brought there to be tried by the ICJ.

Don't worry, the US has a legal theory explaining how exactly the Kiev coup met the legal requirements of 3/4 majority for impeachment of president and procedural requirements for consulation with supreme court.  They really do.  It's just classified.

LOL some people just make me laugh so much.  Yeah, the Kosovo situation is just like the Crimean one!

Yeah, Russia hasn't bombed any cities


Yeah the Ukrainians aren't commiting Genocide.  Dear lord do you people live on the same planet as the rest of us?

So, being genocided is a prerequisite before such action is taken ? Is it based on an international regulation or law ? "Sorry you are not dead enough, it would be illegal".

Yes.  Genocide is is a violation of international law, and outside nations have a right to intervention.  This was a  Resolution adopted by the UN general assembly on December 11th, 1946.  That took me 5 min. of research to find.

Eddie may study international law, but it doesn't take college courses to know that Russia is in direct violation of it.  It only takes 5 minutes of research.  

As far as I read it it doesn't give a direct right to make war, bomb a whole country, and make the area independant. It doesnt nullify others reasons to. And it talk about prevention... that's quite an open door when governement is part fascist and regional linguistic rights are removed.

It did prevent the complete annihilation of a group of people.   To be clear, you don't think it was ok for NATO to stop the Serbians from murdering hundreds of thousands of their people?

12,000 Albanian civilians were massacred and there was a mass rape of women in captured cities.  This only stopped when NATO intervened.  Are you honestly saying this was wrong?

Anyone who compares the situation in the Ukraine to the events of Kosovo is making a mockery of the thousands of graves filled with innocent people in that region.



Captain_Tom on 02 April 2014
Sharu said:
Captain_Tom said:
nanarchy said:

Omg people.  The government of the Ukraine is not illegitimate.  The ex-president of the Ukraine was legally impeached following Ukraine's constitution.  

 


That is totally untrue.

How so?