You've made a few errors there bozobanana:

1) You're not going to see ANY console being maxed out by games after it's been on the market for just 16 months. The vast majority of software released so far has had most of its development done on underpowered and un-finalised hardware. This is the same for any new platform every generation.

2) Contrary to popular belief Expresso is not 3 x Broadways duct-taped together. Despite being a PowerPC derived chip it isn't outdated, it's a brand new CPU and completely custom built. And if you're talking about the architecture it's based on being outdated then the X86 CPUs in the PS4 and One aredeven 'older'.

3) As for the GPU where are you getting anything at all about the GPU being 'well documented' and being 'low end'. I've seen nothing but praise for Latte from developers, it's a new chip which again is custom designed, has a shedload of eDRAM on-die and also has a DX11-equivalent feature set.

4) That 'small amount' of eDRAM is the exact same amount that the One has, albeit ESRAM. And developers have been complaining about working with the memory on the One but have had nothing but praise for the Wii U's setup.

5) If you have any doubts about the capability of the Wii U's hardware then you need to take a closer look at Super Mario 3D World, Mario Kart 8, Bayonetta 2, X and SSBU.



Like I've said before we can only judge the hardware when Project CARS is released because it's the only third party title so far that's having equal effort put in compared to other versions. It's as simple as that really.

Nobody in their right mind is saying it's comparable to the PS4 and One in terms of power but it's no slouch either. It should be able to handle downscaled ports of PS4 and One games without much of a problem.

supernihilist said: bonzobanana said: So much denial of reality in this thread. Whatever the wii u is capable of its doing it now. While Nintendo may not have released the spec to the general public (because its so terrible) developers will have full information. Same cpu architecture as before, well documented low end modern gpu (likely mobility design), a small amount of high speed embedded memory and low bandwidth main memory. Nothing amazing, all a very cheap design. Performance poor for modern ambitious games but perfectly adequete for cartoon graphics and a huge generational leap from the wii. For those who think the wii u is powerful why not wait until there is some evidence to support your view (you'll be waiting a long time) before commenting. It just looks ridiculous to write about the power of the wii u when its generally beaten for most games by ps3 and 360. I might as well write about the 360 being close to the power of the xbox one or the ps3 being close to the performance of the power of the ps4 both stupid statements but no different to claiming the wii u is powerful. At this point in time both ps3 and 360 have a wider choice of technically far more impressive games than wii u and ultimately thats what matters. lol, thats funny comin from u if anything, WiiU chipset is too expensive by Nintendo standards remember its everything on the same MCM and eDram is on die too everything is packed together for low latency and maximize eDram performance ss. stop telling people they are in denial when u dont have a clue

Why on earth would the wii u chipset be expensive, its on the same fabrication process as the current 360 and PS3 and not on the more advanced process (28nm) that the ps4 and xbox one use.  It's cheap to say the least and is only run at a low speed so yields will be ultra high, even cheaper again. The 360 and PS3 cpu's are running at 3.2ghz not the 1.25ghz of wii u.

PS4 apu size at 28nm is 19x18.3mm (348mm2)

Xbox one apu is the same at (348mm2)

wii u cpu is 32.7mm2 at 45nm so would be equivilant of about 20mm2 at 28nm

wii u gpu is 156.21mm2 at 40nm so  109mm2 at 28nm so combined is 137mm2 or getting close to a third of the size of ps4/xbox one and running at a slower speed and paired with very slow external memory.

The wii u die size is less than ps3 and 360 too and again runs the cpu side much, much slower than them.

That is the cold hard truth of wii u.

If however Nintendo had paid out for a 28nm process they could have massively improved its performance while still producing a compact console. They could have added more cpu and gpu resources and produced a console cleanly between 360/PS3 and PS4/Xbox one in performance. Instead we have a console below 360/ps3 that is only really usable for Nintendo's own exclusive games.

Lets say they had put in 128MB of external GDDR5 memory and dedicated more silicon to gpu and cpu resources they would again have had something more competitive.

The fact Nintendo went so cheap with a 40/45nm process same as ps3/360 models is why thy console is mostly performing below 360 and PS3.

If you believe the wii u gpu and cpu being close together gives improved latency etc then you must really be impressed with ps4 and xbox one as the gpu and cpu are actually on the same silicon and so in theory can have even faster memory bandwidth without the restraints of external data connection.

Again there is absolutely no basis for believing the wii u is powerful which ever direction you approach it from but the real test is how it actually performs and its clearly nonsense to pretend a console is powerful when in the real world it is struggling to perform above consoles that were first available about 8 years ago.

Nintendo have done wonders getting respectable performance out of very cheap components but that performance level is still below that of 360 and PS3 most of hte time.

Haven't quite seen a game like Mario Kart 8 on the PS3/Xbox360.

The Last of Us is a great looking game though, but it's a completely different style. It outmatched a lot of PS4/XBONE games that are currently out. But people tend to ignore that when they say Wii U hasn't produced better looking games than the PS3's finest. ;)

How convenient for them.

Let's compare games that are fair to compare:

Bayonetta 1 vs. Bayonetta 2. The latter game looks vastly better than the previous.

snowdog said: You've made a few errors there bozobanana: 2) Contrary to popular belief Expresso is not 3 x Broadways duct-taped together. Despite being a PowerPC derived chip it isn't outdated, it's a brand new CPU and completely custom built. And if you're talking about the architecture it's based on being outdated then the X86 CPUs in the PS4 and One aredeven 'older'. 3) As for the GPU where are you getting anything at all about the GPU being 'well documented' and being 'low end'. I've seen nothing but praise for Latte from developers, it's a new chip which again is custom designed, has a shedload of eDRAM on-die and also has a DX11-equivalent feature set. 5) If you have any doubts about the capability of the Wii U's hardware then you need to take a closer look at Super Mario 3D World, Mario Kart 8, Bayonetta 2, X and SSBU

2. Each core is still PowerPC 7XX based. The entire CPU has seen some updates and modernisations, but there's only so much they can do with an aged architecture. It's not just about the difference between X86 and PowerPC. Every few years CPUs go through a major architectural change (e.g. AMD going from the K10 architecture (late Athlon/Phenom) range to the newer Bulldozer architecture (newer FX range). The sheer amount of investment on X86 completely dwarfs that of PowerPC so there's only so much modernisation of the old architecture Nintendo can do.

3. Again, the basic architecture is known and a general performance range can be drawn as well as a more detailed picture of the features developers have at their disposal. The unknown parts may well be beneficial to performance, but with the die size, manufacturing process and the power draw, there are some significant physical limitations.

5. The problem is people have seen these and some are still not convinced it's a significant step up. On a tech level they do appear to be a step up from the PS3/360, but it's minor enough for a lot of people to not notice. Previous generations have always seen a clear and significant improvement in graphical fidelity. The only exception seems to tbe the two Wii consoles.

I didn't even have to read this to know what was inside. I'm embarrassed as a Wii U owner.

Samus Aran said: Haven't quite seen a game like Mario Kart 8 on the PS3/Xbox360. The Last of Us is a great looking game though, but it's a completely different style. It outmatched a lot of PS4/XBONE games that are currently out. But people tend to ignore that when they say Wii U hasn't produced better looking games than the PS3's finest. ;) How convenient for them. Let's compare games that are fair to compare: Bayonetta 1 vs. Bayonetta 2. The latter game looks vastly better than the previous.

I've actually seen a lot better than Mario Kart 8 on ps3/360. Sonic transformed that is similar graphically runs at 1024x576 on wii u but is 1280x720 on ps3 for example. Both ps3 and wii u versions suffer from a little bit of frame rate issues and are beaten by the 360 version. Lets not forget cartoon graphics are much easier to achieve, more repeated textures, less realistic lighting, no complex physics engines etc. Mario kart 8 is not technically impressive but it is artistically very beautiful. I've not seen any wii u game yet as technically impressive as the best games of 360 and PS3 and I own all three consoles and a projector where every little issue can be seen.

Still I hope to be proved wrong with Mariokart. I mean it does have a later gpu architecture in wii u with an extended feature set over 360 and PS3 so games like Mariokart really should be able to show some advantage on wii u. It's really games that require higher cpu resources that fail to match 360 and PS3 normally and that shouldn't really be an issue with Mariokart.

Just got Mario 3D world and again very attractive artistically but certainly not technically impressive and nothing the ps3 or 360 couldn't do. In fact I'm sure in some ways they could improve on it.

If you want to compare the wii u performance level to other consoles you really need to compare games that really push a console. These won't be simplistic platform games or kart racers they will be huge open world games. X is the only game so far that seems to be in that area and from what we have seen so far looks a mixture of both good and bad.  On face value it looks like an upscaled version of xenoblade chronicles with a few graphic enhancements etc but no complex physics engine or weather patterns and effects. It doesn't look like anything as complex as Skyrim. Animations look simplistic and there isn't a lot happening on screen. It really looks on face value what you would expect, a game making use of a few more gpu resources but compromised by limited cpu power.

Let me sum up: "If, but it's not."

As is, the Wii U will never see results on par with the XB1 or PS4.

Buy it for the Nintendo franchises, but don't delude yourself into thinking you're buying a supercomputer just waiting to be unlocked by the "right" developers.

bonzobanana said: Samus Aran said: Haven't quite seen a game like Mario Kart 8 on the PS3/Xbox360. The Last of Us is a great looking game though, but it's a completely different style. It outmatched a lot of PS4/XBONE games that are currently out. But people tend to ignore that when they say Wii U hasn't produced better looking games than the PS3's finest. ;) How convenient for them. Let's compare games that are fair to compare: Bayonetta 1 vs. Bayonetta 2. The latter game looks vastly better than the previous. I've actually seen a lot better than Mario Kart 8 on ps3/360. Sonic transformed that is similar graphically runs at 1024x576 on wii u but is 1280x720 on ps3 for example. Both ps3 and wii u versions suffer from a little bit of frame rate issues and are beaten by the 360 version. Lets not forget cartoon graphics are much easier to achieve, more repeated textures, less realistic lighting, no complex physics engines etc. Mario kart 8 is not technically impressive but it is artistically very beautiful. I've not seen any wii u game yet as technically impressive as the best games of 360 and PS3 and I own all three consoles and a projector where every little issue can be seen. Still I hope to be proved wrong with Mariokart. I mean it does have a later gpu architecture in wii u with an extended feature set over 360 and PS3 so games like Mariokart really should be able to show some advantage on wii u. It's really games that require higher cpu resources that fail to match 360 and PS3 normally and that shouldn't really be an issue with Mariokart. Just got Mario 3D world and again very attractive artistically but certainly not technically impressive and nothing the ps3 or 360 couldn't do. In fact I'm sure in some ways they could improve on it. If you want to compare the wii u performance level to other consoles you really need to compare games that really push a console. These won't be simplistic platform games or kart racers they will be huge open world games. X is the only game so far that seems to be in that area and from what we have seen so far looks a mixture of both good and bad.  On face value it looks like an upscaled version of xenoblade chronicles with a few graphic enhancements etc but no complex physics engine or weather patterns and effects. It doesn't look like anything as complex as Skyrim. Animations look simplistic and there isn't a lot happening on screen. It really looks on face value what you would expect, a game making use of a few more gpu resources but compromised by limited cpu power.

Lol, Sonic and Sega all stars racing transformed looks like complete crap compared to Mario Kart 8. You bought the wrong console if you dislike cartoon graphics. 

And X looks a lot better than Xenoblade. Not sure if you actually played Xenoblade lately, but the difference is huge. And we've barely seen any footage from X, so I would wait before making conclusions like that. 

Lazy ports don't mean a thing. 

Sonic Racing Transformed is 720p native as far as I remember. Have you got any sauce for 576p. That's a VERY odd native resolution.

Edit: Just checked the DF article and it is sub-HD. But despite that they say that the Wii U SKU is the definitive console version due to no screen tearing thanks to v-synch and 5 player multiplayer.

Wii U is the most powerful 8 gen console. Everyone knows that...