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Forums - Nintendo - The truth about Nintendo

 

What do you think about Nintendo's attitude?

Awful, they should fail i... 189 14.04%
 
Pretty Bad, they should l... 385 28.60%
 
Not bad, they're just as anybody else 188 13.97%
 
Good, we need more like them 389 28.90%
 
Excellent, they don't need to change one bit 173 12.85%
 
Total:1,324

Everything that needed to be said about Nintendos current situation and business outlook has already been said and laid out by Rob Crossley on CVG.  After his writing, nothing more needs to be said apart from how long will it take to happen.

Source: http://www.computerandvideogames.com/446277/blog/nintendo-must-reinvent-itself/

If you're not making mistakes, goes the saying, then you're not doing anything.

That's likely the most generous evaluation one can make of Nintendo's swing from trendsetting market leader to the predicament it finds itself in today.

On Friday, the company's investors were left reeling from new disclosures regarding the Wii U's commercial performance. The severity of the console's struggle, now fully exposed in unambiguous sales figures, has triggered a frenzy of speculation about Nintendo's future.

Chief executive Satoru Iwata, who revealed he will now take a pay cut, has insisted he should not resign despite growing questions over his leadership. Some think the company should put an end to its thirty-year tradition of building hardware. Others say Nintendo should swallow its pride and try to flourish on smartphones. Some believe it is doomed regardless.

It would of course be extreme to suggest that Nintendo is on the verge of capitulation, especially considering it has cash reserves that could cover the investment required to carry both the Xbox One and PS4 combined.

But regardless of how much time it can buy, Nintendo must accept it is on a downward spiral. Its decades-old production cycle of self-serving hardware platforms will eventually consume the business. Drastic action, however painful, is now a necessity.

The Wii U is cornered

Those who want to understand the extent of the current problem are spoilt by a wealth of alarming statistics. One of the worst, undoubtedly, is that Nintendo sold more Wii U units in its first seven weeks than in the entire financial year that followed.

Another is that the machine's predecessor, which launched eight years ago and was recently discontinued in key territories, is still selling more games than the Wii U. Then of course there is the latest stabbing wake-up call; Nintendo has flattened its annual Wii U sales projection from 9 million to 2.8 million units. It's a figure that doesn't just reveal the limited appeal of the system, but also how oblivious Nintendo is of the problem.

Wii U sold better in its first seven weeks since launch than in the twelve months that followed

Retailers have, inevitably, lost patience. Across the UK and the US, various supermarkets and chain stores have in some cases condensed Wii U shelf space to a small in-store island, while others have pulled support entirely.

Most worrying of all is that Nintendo's dependable system sellers, those garlanded games released to an unopposed market, cannot shoulder such a burden.

Super Mario 3D World, a flagship Nintendo EAD title that is eulogised by critics, recorded the worst debut sales of any 3D Mario game yet. Across the UK and US, it didn't register on the top-ten charts. It suggests that upcoming key releases (Mario Kart, Smash Bros, et al) may not reverse the console's fortunes. A killer game, or two, may not do it this time.

Perhaps Nintendo, which delivered a near-flawless 3DS campaign last year, knows the game is up for Wii U. Certainly, it is not meaningfully advertising the system any longer - a sign, some might say, that the company knows you either go big on marketing or not at all, and the Wii U is not worth the risk.

"PERHAPS NINTENDO, WHICH DELIVERED A NEAR-FLAWLESS 3DS CAMPAIGN LAST YEAR, KNOWS THE GAME IS UP FOR WII U."

Cynical perhaps, but a wise decision nonetheless. Advertised or not, the Wii U's central concept has proven to be fundamentally unappealing to the masses. It is a core console built with mothers in mind and the result is as messy as that sounds. Most gamers consider the hardware underpowered, while casuals find the controller mix both foreign and daunting.

The breadth of such problems, and indeed the spectacle of their emergence in the same year, has perpetuated serious discussions about whether Nintendo should hasten the system's downfall by no longer supporting it.

Fortunately for active Wii U owners, such a betrayal is out of the question. One of Nintendo's most important assets, perhaps moreso than the console it trades, is a lifelong bond with its customers. Sometimes this is exemplified in the small things (Nintendo has your email address but won't spam you with promotional messages, for example) but on the subject of console support, even for failing systems, it will not tarnish that reputation just because it's convenient to.

Nintendo's dilemma is age-old

The problem is a matter of legacy and tradition too. Nintendo is a keystone of Japanese culture and history, now months away from its 125th anniversary and older than most cities across the country. Its philosophies and values on entertainment are, relative to other media companies, ancient and ossified.

Treasured as that may be, it's the reason why Nintendo is struggling in the rapidly advancing world of interactive entertainment. The corporation's age-old principles, of quality and universal appeal, are still important but not enough to sway a modern audience.

In fact, if one takes the Wii as the anomaly (bear with me on that), historical figures show that Nintendo's home console sales have been in steady decline since the '80s.

The positive impact Nintendo has on people's youth and adulthood is without question, but millions of its fans have demonstrably moved elsewhere at the dawn of each new generation.

That's the problem with honouring history when tastes move on. Competitors such as Sony, Microsoft, Valve and Apple have released game platforms that, in many respects, are perfect for gamers who grew up with Nintendo but now want experiences better suited to their eclectic tastes.

In the three decades since the NES, game enthusiasts have become absorbed in 2D fighters, racing sims, stealth-action games, MMOs, cinematic adventures, Grand Theft Auto and military shooters. Nintendo has barely touched any of these genres, which suggests both a commendable commitment to perfecting its craft yet also reluctance to be honest about gamers' evolving habits.

The recent Wii U calamities may portray Iwata as a businessman who has lost his touch, but the system's struggle is the continuation of the downward spiral that was drawn more than a decade ago - one which it managed to avoid in recent years, but not escape.

In 2002, when major retail chains held fire-sales of remaining GameCube stock, and when a growing number of publishers pulled support for the platform, executives at Nintendo had a clear choice in front of them. Either compete with Sony and Microsoft on their own terms or find a new market entirely.

George Harrison, Nintendo of America's head of corporate communications at the time, said doing neither would have been devastating.

"We knew that direct three-way competition in the hardware space was not going to support Nintendo financially in the future, so something had to change," he told CVG years later.

"We knew we could probably never get that 80 per cent market share back, but we decided that there was a better chance if we went after a different audience."

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So Nintendo decided to quit the console race, at least in the traditional sense. The outcome of that thinking was the Wii, a pioneering and idiosyncratic console that caught the imagination of the masses and dramatically reversed Nintendo's fortunes, at least for a while. But few foresaw that its new casual audience would be so resistant to games industry convention, and in particular, the concept of recycling consoles.

Most families see no reason to replace their Blu-Ray, DVD and VHS player unless it breaks, and it has been this way for decades. Irrespective of Nintendo's poor attempts to demonstrate the Wii U as a new console in the first place, why would a non-committal customer throw away a working console to buy another? Why would an average family even understand the logic behind that?

Perhaps the thinking was: Since a completely different audience replaces their consoles every five years or so, this must be true of everyone.

"A NEW CONSOLE WILL NOT BREAK THIS CURSE. WHAT NINTENDO NEEDS IS A BOLD AND BRUTAL ASSESSMENT OF ITS TRADITIONAL PHILOSOPHIES"

There are reasons to believe the Wii's casual audience was fickle, especially since many of them now play games on smartphones and tablets instead. But the last major mainstream Nintendo title targeted for such a market was Wii Party, released in 2010. As far as the masses are concerned, there are simply no new Wii games anymore.

Whether Nintendo is to blame or not, the company has fallen back to a GameCube audience size and revisits the dilemma that came with it. Where will Nintendo find an audience now? Lifelong fans still follow, and are repaid with some of the finest games in the world, but the numbers are unsustainable.

That's why a new console alone will not break this curse. What Nintendo needs more than anything is a bold and brutal assessment of its traditional and institutionalised philosophies.

Nintendo must modernise

If any company can inspire Nintendo to reinvent the business, it's Sony. The story of PlayStation across the past five years has been one of a company that has soul-searched for answers on why it lost half its market share and the drastic changes it made thereafter.

Sony has demonstrated a willingness to go as far as it takes. It has torn itself from its roots in order to adapt with the times. PlayStation 4, crafted at SCE's Tokyo headquarters, is still not available in Japan. The console's delay in its homeland, once a nasty rumour, was enacted so that the bigger markets of Europe and the US could take priority. Meanwhile, Ken Kutaragi's vacant role as system architect was filled by an American who doesn't even work for the company (he is, incidentally, a genius).

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Over the past decade, the games industry has undergone a tectonic shift of power from east to west. Sony has accepted this, not just as a painful reality, but as a pillar ideology that informs all of its decisions. From enlarged, FPS-friendly controllers to localised development support teams, PlayStation 4 has embraced the westernisation of games, and in turn has thrived.

Nintendo's casual audience has fled to mobiles. The company must utilise, not resist, their appeal

Conversely, Nintendo's Japan-centric thinking has left it stranded. On Friday, Iwata expanded on the problem, claiming that "in Japan, I can be my own antenna, but abroad that doesn't work".

It's not the time for half-measures, however. The company must understand that relocating a Kyoto businessman to Germany is not going to magically reverse its fortunes. Nintendo's European and North America offices, which should be hubs for local development support, are little more than sales outposts for skilled marketers like Reggie Fils-Aime. They need to be much more than this.

What's now essential is a restructured western-facing business model, and a presence across Europe and North America's development and retail sectors. Yes, it's vulgar that every games company has to do the same thing, but what's worse is the eventual outcome if they don't.

One publishing executive, working on perhaps the biggest franchise in games today, recently told CVG that he felt Nintendo "just doesn't care about US developers". He claimed that not only is there a language barrier when studios submit development queries up the chain, but that his studio had to wait days for Nintendo to reply.

Geography and language are not the only obstacles here. Nintendo is wilfully ignorant of the plight of third-party studios and indie developers. Ever since the days of cartridges, the corporation has prioritised its own software sales over the livelihood of its development partners.

It is not uncommon to hear old stories of Nintendo taking months to certify games that would've, if released on time, competed with its own releases. Or tales of Shigeru Miyamoto touring western studios to ensure Nintendo's self-developed N64 games were a cut above the competition.

Such flagrant competitiveness has ensured Nintendo software leads the way on its hardware, but its bonds with third parties have eroded in an age when they need to be stronger than ever.

Gone too is the opportunity to compete with Microsoft, Sony, Apple and Valve in the internet age. Fifteen years ago, Nintendo was right to believe online gaming would become a pit of screaming teenagers and abusive language. Yet it has failed to yield the internet's true power, and is not prepared for an age where connectivity has transformed concepts of participation and ownership.

"NINTENDO WAS RIGHT TO BELIEVE ONLINE GAMING WOULD BECOME A PIT OF SCREAMING TEENAGERS... YET IT HAS FAILED TO YIELD ITS TRUE POWER"

PlayStation 4's killer app is not a game, but a subscription service that offers free titles and various discounts. That is telling of the rapid evolution of the games industry and, due to inaction at executive level, why Nintendo has become so outdated.

Nintendo can no longer be so pugnaciously inflexible at a time of fluid price points and discount frenzies, and to some extent it is listening. But to even meet the baseline requirements of today (a robust network infrastructure, an expansive library of titles, a seamless cloud storage solution) Nintendo requires a new workforce with online expertise.

You're either in or you're out

Tales of past Nintendo turnarounds have always begun with innovation; an ingenious idea that allures past customers. Quick fixes like the Wii, as exciting as they were, have only delayed the work required at the company's foundations. To remedy its growing list of shortcomings, Nintendo must build a sustainable and future-proof business structure that is both cosmopolitan and connected.

Even flagship games have failed to stimulate Wii U sales

Before anything, the most important decision Nintendo needs to make is decide who, exactly, should be its target audience. What the Wii U demonstrated so effectively was that trying to entice both core and casual gamer fails to work on either.

"Nintendo was dead to us very quickly," one EA source told me when asked about why the publisher fell out with Nintendo so soon after committing to the system.

"It became a kids IP platform and we don't really make games for kids. That was pretty true across the other labels too. Even the Mass Effect title on Wii U, which was a solid effort, could never do big business, and EA like Activision is only focused on games that can be big franchises".

Candid words but helpful feedback. If Nintendo wants to entice the core gamer, it must summon meaningful support from the third party publishers who earn their crust with berserk and shouty war games.

To do this, the platform holder must establish that audience, not just wait for it, which means getting dirty with its own PEGI-18s and Rated-Ms. A depressing betrayal of its ancestry, certainly, but the only chance it has to reclaim the core.

Chief executive Satoru Iwata has taken a pay cut, but resists calls for his resignation

On the other hand, if Nintendo wants to recapture its glory days of the Wii, then it must come to terms with a different problem entirely; that its casual audience now consider smartphones their primary games device. On Friday, Iwata cryptically explained that Nintendo is "studying how smart devices can be used to grow the game-player business".

Naturally this led to speculation that Mario games will jump to mobiles - a strategy that Nintendo, quite rightly, understands would be another short-term gain that would ultimately jeopardise its future. What is more likely is that Nintendo will, instead of resisting mobiles, embrace them as input devices. It could be a ingenious decision, especially considering the ubiquity of mobiles are, and how comfortable consumers are with them.

Whichever audience it targets, it can't be both. When those polarised concepts are forced together, the design is taken down a path where a Frankenstein console, like the Wii U, is the inevitable outcome.

What then, of Iwata? His critics grow by the day and his position, understandably, is routinely questioned. To restructure the business, shouldn't that begin at the top? It's a tough call. Iwata has reinvented Nintendo before, and for a few years had struck gold by backing unusual ideas that were questioned internally. Those famous reserves of cash would not be so vast were it not for him.

Modernising a company requires nerve, vision and a prodigious ability to absorb punishment. Iwata provably carries such traits. Nintendo under its current chief executive is a corporation that carries two things essential for any company reinvention; an openness to radical thinking and a willingness to try anything. Yes, that means he will stumble again here and there, but the important part is that he wants to try. After all, if you're not making mistakes you're not doing anything.



Sony want to make money by selling art, Nintendo want to make money by selling fun, Microsoft want to make money.

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Pavolink said:
Zod95 said:
Pavolink said:
This looks like another john lucas crazy thread.

Agree with some points, but it's clear that you simply don't understand about bussiness. Are you really that naive to believe what you wrote?

Nintendo is not evil for developing cheap games and taking away a lot of profits (well in the past) and Sony/MS good companies by spending every dollar in new videogames.

Those three companies wants to invest less and generate more profit. You are just fooling yourself believing anything else. Just because Nintendo was capable of doing that, while S/M are not, doesn't mean they are good. In fact, it just proofs how incompetent the later two are. Bussiness is not about pleasing fans and red numbers. It's about selling and keep a "happy" userbase interest in buying your next product.

Think about it for a moment.

All companies want to maximize profits, that's why they are companies and not non-profit organizations. But they have different ways to get there, that's what distinguishes them. Nintendo is more about easy-business and greedy moves. Sony and Microsoft are more about raising up the standards and trying to be the best of the best. If you take a look at the OP, you will realize there's no part saying Nintendo is evil, just what is its mindset and long-term strategy. If you consider that to be evil, that's already your opinion.

Business is not about red numbers, but it's definitely about pleasing fans (and I would add "other stakeholders"). We all can see how successful NES and SNES were and how unsuccessful N64 and GC were (because of Nintendo's bad practices from the past). We can all see how Wii was successful at the beginning and how unsuccessful it was at the end and now Wii U (because of the low quality/price ratio those eco-systems ended up to be). Nintendo doesn't take advantage of its dominant positions to thrive in the long-term, only to cash in as much as possible in the short-term.

Sony and Microsoft act differently. Sony, for example, continued to expand their investments in videogaming despite 2 consecutive massive successes (PS1 and PS2). They think in the long-term, not in getting to 32B$ of profits as quickly as possible.

Think about it for a moment.


Are you naive or just...

ok. Sony is not the god of games and didn't expand because they believe in the long term. If they do they wouldn't have to cut some of their divisions. If they "expand" is because their incompetence to make profits. They cannot compete with Nintendo in the Wii Sports territory (like their copy sport game showed) but they can compete in the areas that the competition lacks.

And I'll like to remind you that Nintendo is investing and expanding to the point of making new buildings and developing new tools to share among devices, while Sony is selling the ones they have. Is selling a building to generate fake profits the same as investment in the long term? NO.

Stop with this bullshit. You clearly doesn't understand.

Really? Then please tell me how keeping declining divisions is thinking about the long-term? I'm very curious on that one.

"If they "expand" is because their incompetence to make profits" - This has potential too. Please elaborate.

Regarding the buildings talk, you fail to understand that behavior / intentions / attitude is shown by % of revenues or profits, not by absolute values. Nintendo did what they could and Sony sold what they must. This very simple analysis and your hugely biased criteria shows that you don't want to understand things. You just want to be unreasonable playing the "MDM challenge".



Prediction made in 14/01/2014 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 100M      XOne: 70M      WiiU: 25M

Prediction made in 01/04/2016 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 100M      XOne: 50M      WiiU: 18M

Prediction made in 15/04/2017 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 90M      XOne: 40M      WiiU: 15M      Switch: 20M

Prediction made in 24/03/2018 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 110M      XOne: 50M      WiiU: 14M      Switch: 65M

I am unable to quote anything from the last page, a post appears to be glitching it for me:

Zod95 said:
"It's very interesting that you can't understand, on the text you bolded, that effort and money are separated by a "/", not by a "=". The example I had considered was about less effort and more money. In the end, the amount of commitment should be the same."


Effort, commitment, quality, money, you change criteria so often it's hard to keep track.

Regardless, the point i was making was that you previously mentioned Nintendo relying on their creativity to create good games, and this was not an indicator of commitment. But now that it fits your agenda, creativity "probably" correlates to more money, so requires the same commitment.

Zod95 said:
"And...?"


And... now you're debating how much profit a company should have. Please do tell, how much profit should Nintendo have, exactly, to not be considered greedy by you, but also be in a healthy position? Keep in mind the nature of the gaming industry, and the sheer amount of money which can be lost on a single unsuccessful venture.

Zod95 said:
"Your comment doesn't contradict mine at all. Anyway, could you give me 2 examples for each of those purposes?
- loss leaders
- multimedia trojan horses
- advertisement boards
- tools for brand recognition"


It does indeed contradict you.

You say "Nintendo is more about easy-business and greedy moves." and "Sony and Microsoft act differently. Sony, for example, continued to expand their investments in videogaming despite 2 consecutive massive successes (PS1 and PS2)" using only a comparison of profits from each company's gaming division to "prove" this.

You fail to take into account Sony and Microsoft having ventures in other divisions. That losses in one department can be for the sake of profits in another. That a business with multiple divisions can have an overall business plan. You can't simply compare the sole gaming divisions of Sony and Microsoft to Nintendo without taking into account their differences.

I'm surprised you are so flummoxed by these basic business terms despite all of the "research" you put in. Here's some reading material:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_leader
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freebie_marketing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Product_bundling
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_Horse
http://www.nytimes.com/2000/10/26/technology/playstation-2-game-console-as-trojan-horse.html
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2007/mar/29/sonyplaystation.sony
http://nextgengamingblog.com/blog/playstation-vita-tv-sonys-trojan-horse/
http://investorplace.com/2013/03/sonys-next-gen-trojan-horse-is-hobbling/#.UyO5GIWrqk0
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advertising
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brand_awareness



Please forgive me if this comes out broken.  [edit:  seems OK except for lots of whitespace which I deleted.]  The page with the post I'm trying to reply to is broken somehow (even @ 10 posts per page) and I am copy/pasting the source code to see if it will work.
ZOD95 SAID:

Final-Fan said:
Zod95 said:
Final-Fan said:

1.  No, I said, essentially, 'yes, they may emulate real fighting techniques, but they also have ridiculous crap like Ivy's chain sword etc.', which segues into a more general point about the relative levels of realism in both games.  But even concentrating on just the fighting techniques, I ADDRESSED YOUR POINTS, and you just dismissed it. 

As for the MDM challenge:  "Nintendo has made more profit off of games than Sony or Microsoft." 

I also have a bonus challenge in mind, but it's only for after you're completely done fulfilling your challenge on the above statement.  "The fact that Nintendo is completely reliant on video game sales as a company suggests it has more at stake concerning the well-being and future of the video game industry than either Microsoft or Sony, and therefore more reason to care about it."

Nice! Let me try:

1st - No, that's a blatant lie. Nintendo has made more money while depreciating some intangible assets like the goodwill of gamers to buy their products, which is now very low and that's why Wii U doesn't sell. Therefore, Nintendo has made less profit than Sony, which continues to have acceptance among gamers.

2nd - That's also a blatant lie. First, Nintendo has been selling many hardware peripherals, which are only videogame sales in your opinion. Second, even if that was true, Sony's and Microsoft's other divisions are also reliant on videogames. How will PC Windows sell when there is no games? How will Bravia TVs sell when there is no consoles? Third, Sony and Microsoft have not yet recovered everything they have invested on videogaming and thus they have more at stake regarding the future of this market than Nintendo, which has already segregated huge amounts of wealth into a safe place.

It's so easy to be on this side of the fence

Final-Fan said:

2b.  I didn't base that assertion on my opinion of those types of music, but rather logic.  Consider: 
–Since I+V music is, in fact, I PLUS V, doesn't it stand to reason that if you take out all the complexity in the V part, the I-only remains will be likely to be less complex than I-only music that still has all of its complexity and was DESIGNED to be complete by itself while the I-minus-V music wasn't? 
–Doesn't it stand to reason that the more components are in something, the more complexity can be achieved?  Nintendo's orchestral music would therefore have much more potential complexity than a rock band with less than a dozen people in it (including the singer).

You are disregarding the fact that some music tracks may be, in essence, more complex than others and therefore the "designed to be complete" may not make much sense to apply. What is "complete" to an artist may not be to another. Instrumental-only music may be, in general, more empty than vocal music. To claim it isn't it's just your opinion unless to present evidence.

1a.  I presume by "1st" you are addressing the first challenge, as I requested.  Therefore, you didn't really address at all the very fact Nintendo has made that $32 billion you were complaining about when you began this thread.  In order to question that statement you basically have to contradict your own earlier position.  But instead you just spouted irrelevant nonsense.  [edit:  deleted an irrelevant argument of my own]

1b.  "2nd" OK, I admit Nintendo also makes video game hardware, and that video game hardware can be a source of business by [edit:  both direct profit and] getting royalties from third parties publishing their games on it.  But it is well known that Nintendo hardware has not attracted enough business to their home consoles to be particularly successful in this way for over a decade now.  So yes, they are reliant on video game sales.  Their hardware depends on their software, not the other way around; if no one bought Nintendo games, the hardware would soon follow. 

Your analogies are—I'm going to be blunt here—idiotic.  People buy TVs to watch TV even more than to play video games.  People buy computers for business, the Internet, email, and a thousand things other than video games.  When the PS3 launched in 2006 you could use it as a Linux computer, but let's be honest here, it would never succeed if there were no PS3 games.  If there were no computer games, computers would still be successful, even if the market took a hit and some individual businesses would be in trouble. 

Saying MS and Sony have more "at stake" because they have not recovered the money they've spent sounds a lot like the "sunk costs" fallacy.  It's nonsense.  If they think they can make money somehow by investing in games (even if they make money on TVs people buy to make their games look better or because Sony fanboys like Sony TVs better or something), then they will stay in it.  If they think that investing in games would lose them money overall, then they will walk to the door, no matter how much money they've sunk, because as a business they don't want to sink even more with no expectation of ever getting it back. 

2.  So if some music is just inherently more complex than other music, then the implication is that how complex a piece of music is depends on how it was composed rather than simply whether it has vocals in it, which is very sensible, and destroys your entire argument.

1: You can't expect me to be honest on this challenge. This doesn't reveal my true opinion and I don't need to be coherent or reasonable, just logical (that's why it is so easy). It's just to show you that it's totally possible to raise issues on any fact and argue forever in order to make it look like an opinion that's not even shared by everyone and thus it can be called a blatant lie when someone tries to put it as a fact. That's essencially what has been happening here with the OP.

Are you convinced yet or do you want me to continue the challenge?

2: As I said several times before to other people, voice in music is just an indicator, so it doesn't destroy my argument at all.

MY REPLY:
1.
The original challenge you proposed was, "Ultimately (and we've already got there), anything can be viewed as an opinion, not a fact. You can think about any general statement you could make regarding Nintendo, Sony or Microsoft. Take the time you need. Pick the one that you think to be undeniable. I can say in advance (without knowing what it is) that it's an opinion, not a fact. And, using the same "argumentative weapons" as people here have been using, I can show it."

My submission to your challenge was, "Nintendo has made more profit off of games than Sony or Microsoft."

I don't know what you think you're accomplishing by blithering about stuff that's irrelevant to the discussion at hand, but as far as I can see you are failing the challenge so far (to show that that sentence is NOT a fact but nothing more than an opinion). If what you're trying to do is say, "Yes, I am just spouting irrelevant nonsense, but that is the same thing you are doing," well, all I can do to that is shake my head.

Actually, wait. I just noticed how you might not be spouting irrelevant nonsense, merely nonsense. You said, "Nintendo has made more money depreciating some intangible assets like the goodwill of gamers to buy their products [...] Therefore, Nintendo has made less profit than Sony, which continues to have acceptance among gamers." But remember, your $32 billion figure covers the ENTIRE history of Nintendo's involvement in video games. Before that, they had no goodwill among video gamers! In fact, the whole industry at the time had been discredited by a market crash (Atari). So even if we agree that Nintendo has been "cashing in" its reputation (I disagree), that doesn't count against their $32 billion since it was made in the same time period we're talking about. They just turned one type of profit (goodwill) into another (money).

2. It destroys your ARGUMENT that it should be USED AS AN INDICATOR in your other argument. In other words, I didn't destroy your larger argument by showing that your thing about vocal/instrumental music shouldn't be used to support it—but the fact remains that you can't support your other argument with the vocal/instrumental "indicator" because the indicator is crap, for reasons previously explained by both myself and others.



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

"In fact, the whole industry at the time had been discredited by a market crash (Atari)."

Allow me to fix that for you....

"In fact, the whole American industry at the time had been discredited by a market crash (Atari)."

The whole 'Great market crash' is bollocks is only ever affected America, over here in Europe, no such thing ever actually happened and Video games only continued to grow. Europe was unaffected mainly due to the thriving home computer market.
Machines like the BBC Micro and ZX Spectrum protected the UK from feeling the American crash.



Sony want to make money by selling art, Nintendo want to make money by selling fun, Microsoft want to make money.

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There is just one thing that i don't get at all with their policy, it's why do they not make at least a few AAA games per gen, AAA in the same standards than the concurrence i mean. Most of their big games are still in 2D, and even if i can enjoy it at times, i must say it looks like past it, not very innovating anyway.

Don't get me wrong, Mario, SMB, Donkey Kong... Probably still all good games but that is not my point. I see no issues Nintendo continues to make these games. But i believe that, unconsciously at least, the fact their best games are still in 2D (Ok even with some 3D effects) really discredit them a lot in our technophile era. That the best Nintendo exclusives just looks like some PSN/XBLA 10£ games is something that must not help to sell the Wii U.

So it amazes me that in 2014, with all their money and developement powers, they don't try to make games in 3D with the best graphics their console is capable of. Just a few more mature and better looking games, it's just common sense to diversify and go where the bigger market is. Because yes graphics and the technical aspects matters for a lot of people nowadays.




 

According to this person, these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOk8Tm815lE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kIpr6nSvjI


are less complex than these:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfVsfOSbJY0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kffacxfA7G4


So vocals automatically make the music more complex. Even though Gershwin has had some of the most complex arrangements for piano solos. But that's just one instrument, so surely no effort was involved in that.
Do you seriously believe that? It takes each individual of an orchestra a heck of a lot more time and effort to learn their instrument and master it than it does for Rebecca Black to sing a terrible song with the help of autotune. Not saying that's the case for all singers, as some refine their vocal 'instrument' with just as much dedication, but to say vocals by default involve more effort is just... insane.

I think any further discussion with this person is a waste of time. I try to be respectful of the opinions of others, but they are stating said opinions as hard facts, and almost seem delusional.



Someone screwed up this thread. I can't quote anybody. If only the quick reply is working, I guess I will have to answer from here...



Prediction made in 14/01/2014 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 100M      XOne: 70M      WiiU: 25M

Prediction made in 01/04/2016 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 100M      XOne: 50M      WiiU: 18M

Prediction made in 15/04/2017 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 90M      XOne: 40M      WiiU: 15M      Switch: 20M

Prediction made in 24/03/2018 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 110M      XOne: 50M      WiiU: 14M      Switch: 65M

As far as I can tell, any page with a certain section of posts in it will not be able to click the Reply/Quote/Submit/etc. buttons. If you go to the affected page (page 48 @ 10 posts per page), you won't even be able to do Quick Reply.

When the Rich Text Reply no longer has that post visible, then I guess we will be able to quote normally again. Until then, you just have to copy/paste into Quick Reply.

Or, we could all just spam random things until it pushes the offending post off the bottom of the Rich Text Reply page.



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom!