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Forums - General - Is the evolution story really scientific?

Farmageddon said:
DarkWraith said:
Farmageddon said:

Besides what I've said above and others before, there's a very simple reason why you can't really apply logic to disprove an all powerfull being, and it's very simple: by definition, even if implicitly, such a being has the very handy ability to tell logic to just shove it. Which solves all of those "unmovable object and irresistible force" paradoxes. God, being almighty, is the very third valid state for a binary logic. He can be both the negation and the affirmation of any given proposition. You can't say "this thing is not subject to logic, but aplying logic to it leads to a contradiction, thus this thing doesn't exist", as that's just bad logic.

And this is precisely the reason I don't believe in any such sort of being: you just can't take anything useful out of it. It's a waste of time. Still, it's not contradictory and it's impossible to prove wrong.

By the way, not to be offesnive, but you sound very immature, DarkWraith.

yeh you really have no idea what youre talking about here. when attributes like omnipotence are defined they are defined in a way as to be cohesive with logic. for example:

Omnipotence - all-powerful with respect to its nature 

thus negating any logical absurdities as those would not be within the nature of omnipotence

have you had any philosophy in your entire life, esp. about theology? it seems no...

seek out plantingas ontological argument

Formally? No, not really, I've just read about this and that. As far as I know, though, many thinkers have advanced and attacked many definitions of omnipotence under different points of view, relating it or not to the idea of an actual god, some even defending such "absolute omnipotence".

But it would seem to me that the main reasons to define it the way you talk about would be either to preserve logic, so as to be able to actually derive anything from it, or as a counter argument and deflect things like the stone paradox. My point was that I see no reason why we should impose - or really even expect - God to be bounded by logic, be it either because He abidies by it or because it's part of His very "nature" . I really can't see any a priori reason at all to expect that. If you can, please, I'm interested.

Besides, you speak of studying philosophy and theology, yet your initial argument about the impossibility of an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent being is as simple as possible and, I'm sure, has been tackled by any of the great thinkers who didn't see God as an impossibility or even believed on it's existence in some form or capacity.  To suppose that disproving theism, or even more specifically a Christian-like God, is by this very simple logic such an open and shut case is just preposterous.

As such I bet many, and much better, counter arguments can be found elsewhere, but here's a quick, probably way over-simplified, shot at one:

You seem to take "the good" as being an absolute, necessary and eternal quality, independent of God. That, by itself, can be seen as restricting God. Furthermore, you assume we're in a position to judge what "the good" consist of. One might, on the other hand, say that "the good" is contingent, at least in a sense, being precisely that which God wills, or that "the good" is that which conforms to the nature of God, or that we can't really define waht it is and isn't, thus removing the contradiction you proposed, if kind of tautologically, I guess.

Anyway, as I said before, I don't believe in any given kind of deity, but my broader point remains that I see no reason to expect logic (and, well, reason itself as we know it) to never break on any level of existence, infinitelly distant from our experience as it may be. Much less do I see any reason to believe or, worse yet, impose this to be necessarily the case.

(Just as an aside, a random quick though: another interesting way to argue against the impossibility of God is to notice that God and His properties might actually be impossible to even put in "words". Which I think is acutally consistent with Christian tradition, which says it's only through the Holy Spirit's guidance taht one can to truly understand the bibble. As in, you pretty much need a miracle of faith to even read about God)

okay so no education on the topic, so you tout suppositions as counters? erm...you dont get logic do you? the extent of your counter to posted logic is "well im sure someone has argued against it, IT CANT BE SO SIMPLE" it is, why do you think philosophy is the field with the lowest amount of god believers? you cant inject reason into a faith position. doesn't work.

when you argue, you have to decide with which premise you disagree. if you accept the premises, the conclusion follows necessarily.

there are no "great thinkers" on the side of theim. you have ontological and cosmological arguments which purport some non-interventionist deity. no arguments even exist for personal gods because the idea is so silly and childish. 

nope, omnibenevolence is assigned as a trait by MANY christians (nothing about good is invoked in this argument). therefore it became an a priori truth. the argument simply uses the a priori truths as defined by christianity to argue that such a deity cannot possibly exist due to contradictions with reality.

then you reject Rationalism as a way to discover truth, which is fine. 

if you cant put it into words, you can't argue in favor of it and that reduces it to an argument from ignorance fallacy.



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Jereel Hunter said:
DarkWraith said:

science has nothing to do with god, true enough

logic does. a priori reasoning is exactly perfect for this task. if you define a being with certain attributes those then become true by definition for argument. these attributes can then be used as premises. for example:

1) God exists.
2) God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent.
3) An omnibenevolent being would want to prevent all evils.
4) An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence.
5) An omnipotent being has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.
6) A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.
7) If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent God, then no evil exists.
8) Evil exists (logical contradiction).

this can be applied to any god concept to test for internal consistency and consistency with the observable world

The flaws in your argument are 6 and 7.  Your argument is tantamount to:

1) Parents love their children

2) Parents don't want their children to get hit by cars.

3) Parents know their children can get hit by cars if they leave the house.

4) Parents have the power to keep their children at home.

5) Parents who love their children don't let them leave the house.

Do you see the flaw there? You are making the assumption that if you have the motivation and the power, you can be lead to only a single conclusion. 

God created us with free will. Does he want us to be evil? No. But if he created us without the ability to make bad decisions, we'd be without free will. Just like parents allow their children to leave the house, even though it's less safe than being at home, he has given us the ability to decide our own fates. 

free will doesnt exist, but thats a different discussion.

your counter is quite sophomoric. are parents omnibenevolent? omnipotent? omniscient? no no no

do I really have to address this in depth? i can make you look dumb, the choice is yours.



padib said:

I am making an effort to understand, after reading your post a few times, because I'm not a professional in proof and logic.

@underlined. Given the conditions being what they are and not different, then it's more safe to assume that it was indeed fine-tuned  for the living organisms we see today. Otherwise, it would be like saying, in a crime scene, that the killer could have used a knife instead of a gun if in other conditions he could only find a knife. If he used a gun, then he didn't use a knife. The fact that he may have used a knife doesn't change the fact that he used a gun. So the conditions in the universe may have been different, but what we are certain of is that they are not different, they are what they are and that's the bottom line. That's what we go by, the actual state of the universe, not what could have been.

@italics. The idea is not to prove than humans are special, but when the parameters required for human existence are very precise it's enough to wonder if it was designed that way. There's not more to this. It becomes an even more nagging question if you see no truth to evolution and naturalistic explanations to life.

probably shouldnt even waste my time here as it will only give you another opportunity to present further piss poor arguments, but here we go. 

P1) A maximally Excellent being exists.

P2) A maximally Excellent being would create a maximally Excellent world.

P3) A maximally Excellent world would be the one best fine-tuned for its purpose.

P4) A maximally Excellent world best fine-tuned for its purpose would be one in which its purpose is maximally achieved.

P5) The purpose for this maximally Excellent world is human life.

P6) Humans are restricted to living on one planet, in one solar system, in one galaxy, in one Universe.

C1) Such a world does not exist. P3 & P6.

C2) Such a being does not exist, C1 & P2.

This is an original argument, so there may be flaws not apparent to me. But I think it's quite concise and gets to the point.



They have physical proof of evolution through carbon dating, and fossils. You can see it and touch it.

fossils appear in chronological order, showing change consistent with common descent over hundreds of millions of years and inconsistent with sudden creation. Many organisms show basic similar characteristics, such as sightless eyes, or wings useless for flight.

Ontogeny (embryology and developmental biology) The historical pathway of an organism's evolution. For example, as embryos whales and many snakes develop hind limbs that are reabsorbed before birth. Human embryos have a tail that measures about one-sixth of the size of the embryo itself before it is reabsorbed.



fps_d0minat0r said:
How is it possible to question evolution?
I dont understand....
And what is the alternative theory?





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pauluzzz1981 said:
to be short. It's scientific because it's a theory. But it's not real.

Charles Darwin stated, in his Origin of Species, "The geological record is extremely imperfect and this fact will to a large extent explain why we do not find intermediate varieties, connecting together all the extinct and existing forms of life by the finest graduated steps. He who rejects these views on the nature of the geological record, will rightly reject my whole theory."

Now, 130 years and billions of fossils later, we can rightly reject the view of an incomplete fossil record or of one "connecting together all . . . forms of life by the finest graduated steps."

Out of the millions of fossils in the world, not one transitional form has been found. All known species show up abruptly in the fossil record, without intermediate forms, thus contributing to the fact of special creation. Let's take a look at Archeopteryx, a fossil that some evolutionists claim to be transitional between reptile and bird.

Archeopteryx is discussed in evolutionist Francis Hitching's book, The Neck of the Giraffe - Where Darwin Went Wrong. Hitching speaks on six aspects of Archeopteryx, following here.

(The following six points are quoted from Luther Sunderland's book, Darwin's Enigma: Fossils and Other Problems, pp. 74-75, the facts of which points he gathered from Hitching's book.)

1. It had a long bony tail, like a reptile's.

In the embryonic stage, some living birds have more tail vertebrae than Archeopteryx. They later fuse to become an upstanding bone called the pygostyle. The tail bone and feather arrangement on swans are very similar to those of Archeopteryx.

One authority claims that there is no basic difference between the ancient and modern forms: the difference lies only in the fact that the caudal vertebrae are greatly prolonged. But this does not make a reptile.

2. It had claws on its feet and on its feathered forelimbs.

However, many living birds such as the hoatzin in South America, the touraco in Africa and the ostrich also have claws. In 1983, the British Museum of Natural History displayed numerous species within nine families of birds with claws on the wings.

3. It had teeth.

Modern birds do not have teeth but many ancient birds did, particularly those in the Mesozoic. There is no suggestion that these birds were transitional. The teeth do not show the connection of Archeopteryx with any other animal since every subclass of vertebrates has some with teeth and some without.

4. It had a shallow breastbone.

Various modern flying birds such as the hoatzin have similarly shallow breastbones, and this does not disqualify them from being classified as birds. And there are, of course, many species of nonflying birds, both living and extinct.

Recent examination of Archeopteryx's feathers has shown that they are the same as the feathers of modern birds that are excellent fliers. Dr. Ostrom says that there is no question that they are the same as the feathers of modern birds. They are asymmetrical with a center shaft and parallel barbs like those of today's flying birds.

5. Its bones were solid, not hollow, like a bird's.

This idea has been refuted because the long bones of Archeopteryx are now known to be hollow.

6. It predates the general arrival of birds by millions of years.

This also has been refuted by recent paleontological discoveries. In 1977 a geologist from Brigham Young University, James A. Jensen, discovered in the Dry Mesa quarry of the Morrison formation in western Colorado a fossil of an unequivocal bird in Lower Jurassic rock.

This deposit is dated as 60-million years older than the Upper Jurassic rock in which Archeopteryx was found. He first found the rear-leg femur and, later, the remainder of the skeleton.

This was reported in Science News 24 September 1977. Professor John Ostrom commented, "It is obvious we must now look for the ancestors of flying birds in a period of time much older than that in which Archeopteryx lived."

And so it goes with the fossil that many textbooks set forth as the best example of a transitional form. No true intermediate fossils have been found.

In a letter to Luther Sunderland, dated April 10, 1979, Dr. Colin Patterson, of the British Museum of Natural History, wrote:

"...I fully agree with your comments on the lack of direct illustration of evolutionary transitions in my book. If I knew of any, fossil or living, I would certainly have included them. You suggest that an artist should be used to visualise such transformations, but where would he get the information from? I could not, honestly, provide it, and if I were to leave it to artistic licence, would that not mislead the reader?"

Just think of it! Here is a man sitting amidst one of the greatest fossil collections ever and he knows of absolutely NO transitional fossils. So convincing I believe this quote to be that it will sum up this discussion on fossil evidence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transitional_fossils

http://www.livescience.com/3306-fossils-reveal-truth-darwin-theory.html

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/lines/IAtransitional.shtml

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC200.html

sorry you believe your pastor more than actual scientists. sorry to burst your myth about no transitional fossils. and im sorry you're so opposed to doing your own research.



The best part is people using paleontology to disprove evolution while defending creationism...

Bible says earth is 6000 year old or so... fossils have like several million years... how can one use just a small part that corraborate what they think (and aren't even mainstream thinking into those communities) and disregard everything else.



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deskpro2k3 said:
Do you guys think other more intelligent life forms in the universe read the bible?


I'm sure anything which was capable of breaking down our languages could find and read the bible, but it would probably appear to an Alien race as very very out of date Sci Fi/Horror. Would probably just appear quite strange that both it and lord of the rings have been translated into every language we speak on the planet, Prolly think the 5 guardians of middle Earth were a religon too.



Why not check me out on youtube and help me on the way to 2k subs over at www.youtube.com/stormcloudlive

DarkWraith said:

okay so no education on the topic, so you tout suppositions as counters? erm...you dont get logic do you? the extent of your counter to posted logic is "well im sure someone has argued against it, IT CANT BE SO SIMPLE" it is, why do you think philosophy is the field with the lowest amount of god believers? you cant inject reason into a faith position. doesn't work.

when you argue, you have to decide with which premise you disagree. if you accept the premises, the conclusion follows necessarily.

there are no "great thinkers" on the side of theim. you have ontological and cosmological arguments which purport some non-interventionist deity. no arguments even exist for personal gods because the idea is so silly and childish. 

nope, omnibenevolence is assigned as a trait by MANY christians (nothing about good is invoked in this argument). therefore it became an a priori truth. the argument simply uses the a priori truths as defined by christianity to argue that such a deity cannot possibly exist due to contradictions with reality.

then you reject Rationalism as a way to discover truth, which is fine. 

if you cant put it into words, you can't argue in favor of it and that reduces it to an argument from ignorance fallacy.


Maybe it was a bit of my fault, but I think you either missed or ignored some of my points. The actual relevan ones, actually.

For one, you provided no reason why any deity should be supposed to be bounded by logic, which was my main problem originally.

Then there's also, supposing a deity so bound, the definition of omnibenevolence - which of course does depends on our definition of "good", as benevolence is the will to do good  - and our hability to judge it. Your argument can only hold if you assume you absolutely know what's good and can with absolute confidence judge the "goodness" of the world. I ask why should it be reasonable to suppose that. I realize it makes more sense when speaking of very specific Gods, but the more generic it gets the less it does so.

That's the reason I wrote about some of the possible ways one might define "good", to illustrate.

I used theism on a broader sense, as in "there's some form of god". I realize now in our context it would mean a personal God. My bad.

I'm not saying "we don't know that it's not, so it must be". All I said was "We can't really say for sure it's not. Might be, might not". There's no fallacy in that.

DarkWraith said:

probably shouldnt even waste my time here as it will only give you another opportunity to present further piss poor arguments, but here we go. 

P1) A maximally Excellent being exists.

P2) A maximally Excellent being would create a maximally Excellent world.

P3) A maximally Excellent world would be the one best fine-tuned for its purpose.

P4) A maximally Excellent world best fine-tuned for its purpose would be one in which its purpose is maximally achieved.

P5) The purpose for this maximally Excellent world is human life.

P6) Humans are restricted to living on one planet, in one solar system, in one galaxy, in one Universe.

C1) Such a world does not exist. P3 & P6.

C2) Such a being does not exist, C1 & P2.

This is an original argument, so there may be flaws not apparent to me. But I think it's quite concise and gets to the point.

For this you need to suppose you are able to know and define this single, straight-forward objective of some supposed almigthy creator in two words - "human life" - and also give a very precise meaing to these two words in order to judge how well such goal is achieved. I don't think there's any reason to believe any of that to be true on light of a God, specially one from a religion which focus a lot on the concept of an after-life, which further complicates your simplistic vision of His "goal". It's a lot like my objection of your judgment of how much "benevolence" the world shows.

padib said:

It could, but it is highly unlikely. If I see a drawing in the middle of nowhere, say a picture on a barren beach, will I assume it came from random unintelligent processes?

You know the answer to that. You would have to make a serious effort to deny the obvious in order to convince yourself that that picture was not produced by a printer.

Also, even if patterns in the universe could generate the complexity of life as we know it (which is for all suits and purposes impossible), and honest thinker would have to wonder: why are there laws in the universe, why is there an order, a direction? Why gravity, why energy, why matter? What is the origin to it all?

Any honest thinker probing deep enough into existence would ultimately have to say "I have no fucking idea", and that's it. See the fallacy of argument from ignorance, as DarkWraith mentioned.



OooSnap said:

The evolution story goes something like this: life arose from goo and evolved to you by the way of the zoo.

Is there any empirical, observational documentation of an organism population evolving camouflage abilities on the fly like an Indonesian Mimic Octopus or Anole Lizard? Or an organism evolve special clawed feet to walk vertically and upside down on all walls like an ant? Is their documentation of any creature population evolving feathers or a blow hole or gills? How about a fruitfly evolving glands to produce silk or a spineret or bioluminence abilities or anything of that sort?

Yes

OooSnap said:

How about an organism evolving antennas, a blow hole, gills, a shell, eyes, baleen plates, fluke, arms, legs, trunk, claws, ink dispersal abilities etc. ? Just any radical novel feature or ability would suffice.

Yes

OooSnap said:

You see, it takes radical changes to get a cell from goo to all the diversity of life we see today. But I have yet to see any documentation of at least one example of any organisms observed while occuring evolve such novel abilities or features. It seems that it is an assumption it happened but without the empirical evidence to back it up.

It's not, try reading a biology text book.

OooSnap said:

And if you didn't know, empirical, observational evidence is part of the scientific method. Thus if there is no empirical, observational evidence then it is not scientific:

Luckily, there is. It's in those millions of text books I eluded to earlier.

OooSnap said:

" The scientific method is a body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge. *To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on empirical* and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning."

Rules for the study of natural philosophy", Newton 1999, pp. 794–6, from Book 3, The System of the World

Don't try to teach us the core concepts of science when you're incapable of looking up the single most researched and studied field of scientific inquery in history. It makes you look like an arsehole.

OooSnap said:

Moreover can the story really be scientifically tested and repeated?

First it's not a story. Second, yes.

OooSnap said:

So is the evolution story really scientific?

Again, yes. Now fuck off back to your church and don't come back until you develop a sense of shame and perchant for integrity. You know exactly what you're doing, spouting preached nonsense you've never actually taken the time to study (reading Christian media and scan-reading Wikipedia is not studying), because you're threatened by science; worried it's going to take away your magical sky daddy, which is ironic because evolution says nothing about God, and is fully compatible with modern Christian philosophy.

This thread is pathetic and only highlights your lack of faith in your own convictions by showing us that you feel the need to lie in an attempt to discredit science based off nothing more than your own insecurities. The only people taken in by your crap are idiots with their heads in the sand, and no scientist is even slightly threatened by your bullshit. This pathetic peice of trolling will get you no-where, you just look like a scietifically illiterate fool who's afraid of the truth. How about we go back to talking about video games now, or does this pointless "debate" need to happen on yet another forum?

PS: Remember this; if OooSnap actually wanted to learn about evolution, there are literally thousands of scientific papers, books, websites, videos, documentaries, and lecture series at various levels of complexity from basic school-age to post-graduate university level that (s)he could find with ease. This person doesn't want an answer, they want to evangelise; they want to preach to a captive audience. Nothing more. Don't waste your time.