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Forums - General - Sexy and Sexism are not the same thing?

 

Does Sexy = Sexism

No 113 80.14%
 
Yes 7 4.96%
 
Maybe 2 1.42%
 
Sometimes 11 7.80%
 
See Results 7 4.96%
 
Total:140
Kasz216 said:
Mr Khan said:
The key question is "are you making that character into an object by making him/her sexy?"

There is this misconception that a female character (I read this in a USA Today article about the personae women are taking on in pop music) has to be a virgin or a whore, that there's no real sliding scale between a woman portrayed as mostly asexual, or a slut, but i very much disagree with that assessment. Take a look at Sex and the City, where each woman was hot (in a different way), each one was quite sexually active (Miranda's periodic droughts notwithstanding), yet none of them were portrayed as "whores," that is, women who lived simply to be sex objects for men. Even the insanely sexually active Samantha demonstrated that she was very much in control of almost all of her encounters. This show is good evidence (though only one piece of evidence), that sexy and sexually active female characters are not necessarily misogynistic in portrayal, and can still be seen as quite empowering.

In video games, Bayonetta is a good example. She's was designed to ooze sexuality, down to the whole "strip for powerful attacks" mechanic, but she defines her own sexuality, she strips to *attack*, notably, not as a sign of submission. She owns her own sexuality and revels in it.

On the other side, we observe Dead Or Alive, especially the Volleyball games. The fighting games, now, are more legitimate because the women are portrayed as fully-fleshed characters, where their sexuality is just a part of who they are. The Volleyball games are all about reducing their stature to mere objects, dating sims and girl/girl shenanigans and buying accessories and all.


Well that puts it in a much better way then i cared to.  

Kudos for working up enough energy.

 

Also note for the class.  Khan watches Queens Blade.

And consumes copious amounts of objectifying media

Cognitive dissonance ain't got shit on me!



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

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Those of you who are judging that female character from Metal Gear Solid V purely on its looks are jumping the gun, regardless of the argument...

Here's Kojima's response on the subject, after the controversy:

In response today, Kojima tweeted, “There appears to be some misgivings concerning Quiet, but don’t worry. She was created as an antithesis to the overexposed female characters of old fighting games. In the same way, she without words will be teased like this by those around her in the story. But when you understand the secret of her exposure, you will be ashamed of your remarks.

He continued, “The theme of Metal Gear Solid V is ‘Gene’ ⇒ ‘Meme’ ⇒ ‘Scene’ ⇒ ‘Peace’ ⇒ ‘Race.’ It touches upon the difference of language, race, customs, culture, and preference that come from discrimination, hatred, and conflict. The reaction towards Quiet incited by some of the net is exactly what Metal Gear Solid V itself is.”

http://gematsu.com/2013/09/kojima-responds-to-criticism-of-metal-gear-solid-v-quiet

Interestingly enough, this is actually a great example for this discussion... A good reminder of how looks can be deceiving, whether we talk about a fictional character or a real life person.

Anyway... I'm kinda saturated with this whole discussion by now, so I'll just say this. I see a lot of baseless generalizations and double-standards from those who regularly complain about "sexism" in gaming and other media, making their arguments flawed from the start. It's as if men could never be "objectified" in any way regardless of how we define said concept, or women being incapable of "sexist" attitudes, or even feel sexual attraction at all. All this while constantly ignoring cultural differences, individual preferences/views within genders, homosexuality, etc.

If the argument were about how we need more variety in gaming and more games/characters that cater to women's preferences (regardless of what those are), then I would agree with it, just like I've agreed with Nintendo's attempts to expand gaming to new demographics with Wii and DS this past gen. But as it is now, the criticism seems to be all about questioning the existance of pretty much any game/character that has sex-appeal directed at heterosexual men, and appealing to self-censorship and the creation of "politically correct" games that try not to offend anyone (except those who are offended by violence, apparently...). As someone that believes in freedom of speech/expression/thought, I'll never agree with this. As a form of expression, I want gaming to be as free as possible to challenge my mind, inspire me, excite me, and anything in between. And I find this freedom to be good for everyone, regardless of what you personally want from the medium. The only way to cater to everyone is letting everyone create whatever they want.

So no, I don't think that catering to men's preferences or sexual desires is inherently discriminatory or problematic in any way, and the same applies when women are the ones being catered to. It only becomes discrimination when we consider the preference of one group to be inheretly less valuable or unacceptable.

And that's all I have to say about that... I think...



Jizz_Beard_thePirate said:
According to Feminists... Everything = Sexism against women


According to feminists females should have the same advantages males have   but god forbit males get a single advantage females have   xD



It's sexist if It's a girl, but not when It's a guy.



seiya19 said:

Those of you who are judging that female character from Metal Gear Solid V purely on its looks are jumping the gun, regardless of the argument...

Here's Kojima's response on the subject, after the controversy:

In response today, Kojima tweeted, “There appears to be some misgivings concerning Quiet, but don’t worry. She was created as an antithesis to the overexposed female characters of old fighting games. In the same way, she without words will be teased like this by those around her in the story. But when you understand the secret of her exposure, you will be ashamed of your remarks.

He continued, “The theme of Metal Gear Solid V is ‘Gene’ ⇒ ‘Meme’ ⇒ ‘Scene’ ⇒ ‘Peace’ ⇒ ‘Race.’ It touches upon the difference of language, race, customs, culture, and preference that come from discrimination, hatred, and conflict. The reaction towards Quiet incited by some of the net is exactly what Metal Gear Solid V itself is.”

http://gematsu.com/2013/09/kojima-responds-to-criticism-of-metal-gear-solid-v-quiet

Interestingly enough, this is actually a great example for this discussion... A good reminder of how looks can be deceiving, whether we talk about a fictional character or a real life person.

Anyway... I'm kinda saturated with this whole discussion by now, so I'll just say this. I see a lot of baseless generalizations and double-standards from those who regularly complain about "sexism" in gaming and other media, making their arguments flawed from the start. It's as if men could never be "objectified" in any way regardless of how we define said concept, or women being incapable of "sexist" attitudes, or even feel sexual attraction at all. All this while constantly ignoring cultural differences, individual preferences/views within genders, homosexuality, etc.

If the argument were about how we need more variety in gaming and more games/characters that cater to women's preferences (regardless of what those are), then I would agree with it, just like I've agreed with Nintendo's attempts to expand gaming to new demographics with Wii and DS this past gen. But as it is now, the criticism seems to be all about questioning the existance of pretty much any game/character that has sex-appeal directed at heterosexual men, and appealing to self-censorship and the creation of "politically correct" games that try not to offend anyone (except those who are offended by violence, apparently...). As someone that believes in freedom of speech/expression/thought, I'll never agree with this. As a form of expression, I want gaming to be as free as possible to challenge my mind, inspire me, excite me, and anything in between. And I find this freedom to be good for everyone, regardless of what you personally want from the medium. The only way to cater to everyone is letting everyone create whatever they want.

So no, I don't think that catering to men's preferences or sexual desires is inherently discriminatory or problematic in any way, and the same applies when women are the ones being catered to. It only becomes discrimination when we consider the preference of one group to be inheretly less valuable or unacceptable.

And that's all I have to say about that... I think...


http://www.dorkly.com/article/53916/hideo-kojima-explains-the-controversial-new-metal-gear-solid-character



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Mr Khan said:
-CraZed- said:
Mr Khan said:
-CraZed- said:
 

If the character designs were reversed and he found them more appealing would he be sexist then? You just as many other with your train of thought will find offense no matter the situation. 

A persons preference of anothers appearance is not in of itself sexist. If the poster made the claim that female characters must always fit this description and NO other view should be accepted then you might have a case but he does not. In fact he never even stated his preference between the two but offered a contrast and comparison.

And as for your question about women in the military, yes yes you would. Can't tell you how many REAL enlisted and comissioned female soldiers, marines, sailors, airmen etc. I have seen posing in videos and photos with nothing but their load bearing equipment and/or weapon on and while deployed inside an active combat zone on their own volition no less!

The key is not "what" but "why". In the case of the servicewoman you're speaking of, were they truly doing it of their own volition (i'm not saying that's not possible. It's more than likely that it was their idea, since weaker-willed women are less likely to go to the service in the first place), or are they doing it to look sexy for the men, or due to peer pressure from the servicemen?

Of course they are on their own volition. In fact many of them were subject to UCMJ actions for conduct unbecoming, violating general orders etc.

Appearing in that manner if by force is a different subject all together and is a crime. I was discussing known, self-motivated actions by culpable and coherent adults.

Though that brings up a point in my mind that the sexist moniker could/should be reserved for those who DO resort to criminal behavior to force sexualization/degredation onto someone. sexist = rapist,  sexist =/= artist.

I'm not talking about "force", i'm talking about "pressure." If there is an environment in a given army/navy/AF unit whereby the men put pressure on the women to act like sex objects (without using any overt forms of intimidation), then that's just as bad. Sexual harassment is far more than ass-pinching and attempted rape, it's deeper and more insidious. (again, doesn't mean the women in question were acting in a sexually harrassing environment, but still)

I understand what you are saying I really do. Sure there are times when it is done under various forms of "pressure" such as peer pressure or even manipulation etc. but that can be applied to many other topics such as drug use, criminal behavior, or stupid pranks. That's an issue unto itself.

But yes admittedly there are certainly times where coercion can be a catalyst to these types of behavior BUT by the same token it has been and is done by fully discerning individuals.



-CraZed- said:
If the character designs were reversed and he found them more appealing would he be sexist then? You just as many other with your train of thought will find offense no matter the situation.

A persons preference of anothers appearance is not in of itself sexist. If the poster made the claim that female characters must always fit this description and NO other view should be accepted then you might have a case but he does not. In fact he never even stated his preference between the two but offered a contrast and comparison.

And as for your question about women in the military, yes yes you would. Can't tell you how many REAL enlisted and comissioned female soldiers, marines, sailors, airmen etc. I have seen posing in videos and photos with nothing but their load bearing equipment and/or weapon on and while deployed inside an active combat zone on their own volition no less!

He didn't describe them as "attractive", he described them as "ideal". That's the difference. Had he said that Kratos and the girl are both "attractive", I would have gone "I suppose you might think so" (I don't find either one particularly sexy in design, personally). What he said was that Kratos's design is that of the ideal male, and the girl's design is that of the ideal female. Kratos is designed as the god of war - pure power. The girl is designed to be sexy. Sexism isn't about being attracted to females or to males, it's about how you think of males and how you think of females.

I find it funny that you speak of women who are POSING in videos and photos. Stop and think about it. They're not running around the battlefield in that sort of clothing (whether they're "inside an active combat zone" is irrelevant - I'm talking about when they're on duty). They're wearing it because they want to be sexy. You see the same from some of the men (although they do it differently). I never said that they would never wear it at all. What is different, here, is that the woman is designed to look like that DURING REGULAR ACTIVITY.



JoeTheBro said:
In both cases I was refering to the average ideal body in the eyes of the opposite sex. With Kratos it was about the visuals of strength and muscle, not just the fact he has them. Google sexy guy, and you'll get a bunch of pictures with the same build as Kratos. Google sexy girl, and you'll get a bunch of pictures with the same build as her.

Most women find this attractive in men:

Kratos is this:

Your completely one-dimensional image of "ideal" concerns me greatly.



Mr Khan said:
I'm not talking about "force", i'm talking about "pressure." If there is an environment in a given army/navy/AF unit whereby the men put pressure on the women to act like sex objects (without using any overt forms of intimidation), then that's just as bad. Sexual harassment is far more than ass-pinching and attempted rape, it's deeper and more insidious. (again, doesn't mean the women in question were acting in a sexually harrassing environment, but still)


Are you talking about the legal definition of sexual harassment or just some feminist theory?



dobby985 said:
Mr Khan said:
I'm not talking about "force", i'm talking about "pressure." If there is an environment in a given army/navy/AF unit whereby the men put pressure on the women to act like sex objects (without using any overt forms of intimidation), then that's just as bad. Sexual harassment is far more than ass-pinching and attempted rape, it's deeper and more insidious. (again, doesn't mean the women in question were acting in a sexually harrassing environment, but still)


Are you talking about the legal definition of sexual harassment or just some feminist theory?

Legally. A legally sexually harrassing environment is one in which any person feels pressured to do things of a sexual nature or intimidated by actions with sexual connotations.

I also like how you're using feminist as a pejorative. Charming.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.