By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - General Discussion - JESUS WAS A GOVERNMENT PLOT: Confirmed says Joseph Atwill

allenmaher said:

I think the point he was trying to make is that relying on religeous texts for history or science is a remarkably poor idea since so much of the books is disprovable.  Treating the new testiment as history is almost as bad as assuming there was a historical flood.  Though the story of the flood was mentioned in babylonian clay tablets several thousand years older than the jewish text which is almost a verbatim copy of a tablet found from 7th century BCE.  Though it is clearly a religeous epic about Ea and Gilgamesh.  There is no possible way a flood of that nature happened.

1. Numerically the number of species claimed to be on board is not posssible

2. There is not enough water on earth to make it remotely possible.

3. A flood of that size would leave easily noticable geological and geomorpholocial disruptions for which there is 0 evidence.

4. The amount of rain, 40 days and 40 nights  really would not cut it, there is a limit to the amount of water the atmosphere can hold and precipitate.

But if you want to argue the historical correctness of the story, it does have several old references for which there are primary sources (one step up on the historical evidence for Jesus).  So I think it is a good example of why you should not treat religeous works as any thing other than a religeous work.

 

Thats all fine and good... but has nothing to do with this topic



Around the Network

Some people need to accept the fact that each religion is as truthful in terms of higher beings as the other. Christianity believes in one thing, Islam believes in something else, Buddhists believe in something else. They all say that their beliefs are truthful while the rest aren't.....that means there must be hundreds of Gods/Goddess's in existence right now! Who to believe.....



I believe in the flood, but not the way the bible describes



forethought14 said:
Some people need to accept the fact that each religion is as truthful in terms of higher beings as the other. Christianity believes in one thing, Islam believes in something else, Buddhists believe in something else. They all say that their beliefs are truthful while the rest aren't.....that means there must be hundreds of Gods/Goddess's in existence right now! Who to believe.....


Come on... this isnt even a logical or well thought out argument. 



I'm not a religious man, but I do know the Jesus existed. Has anyone here been to Isreal? I have, I walked most of the path that Jesus would have walked charring the cross. There's a part in the old city where it's said he stumbled and reached his hand out and touched the wall to regain his balance. In that very spot on the wall is a near perfect outline of a hand eroded in the wall. I knew nothing about it till I passed and seen a group of people surrounding the area lead by a guide. As I approached the wall to see what the fuss was about I felt a surge of "power" ( really the only way I can describe it) rush over my body, and I felt "awake" like I've never been before in my life. It was probably the single strangest thing to ever happen to me in my life. Then I listened to the guild explain the story to the group of people she was leading. I still don't go to church, is still don't pray or look to sky's for some being to help me throughout my life. But I know Jesus was real. And I don't think you'll find a single Israeli the will deny his existence. They will only deny that he was the son of god. But he was a real person.



Around the Network
Kasz216 said:
theprof00 said:
 

Jesus is not in the Jewish texts.

And don't be too sure about what people will believe. The Jews didn't exactly accept the Christians, as shown in the fall of Alexandria.

Let's not forget that most Christian/catholic holidays also occur exactly on previous pagan holidays, and also let's not forget Jesus' similarity to previous religious leaders.

Buddha:

Both went to their temples at the age of twelve, where they are said to have astonished all with their wisdom. Both supposedly fasted in solitude for a long time: Buddha for forty–seven days and Jesus for forty. Both wandered to a fig tree at the conclusion of their fasts. Both were about the same age when they began their public ministry:

“When he [Buddha] went again to the garden he saw a monk who was calm, tranquil, self–possessed, serene, and dignified. The prince, determined to become such a monk, was led to make the great renunciation. At the time he was twenty–nine years of age… “Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age.” (Luke 3:23). Both were tempted by the “devil” at the beginning of their ministry: To Buddha, he said: “Go not forth to adopt a religious life but return to your kingdom, and in seven days you shall become emperor of the world, riding over the four continents.” To Jesus, he said: “All these [kingdoms of the world] I will give you, if you fall down and worship me” (Matthew 4:9). Buddha answered the “devil”: “Get you away from me.”

Jesus responded: “…begone, Satan!” (Matthew 4:10). Both strove to establish a kingdom of heaven on earth. According to the Somadeva (a Buddhist holy book), a Buddhist ascetic’s eye once offended him, so he plucked it out and cast it away. Jesus said: “If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out, and throw it away;.” (Matthew 5:29).

Krishna:
According to Bhagavata Purana some believe that Krishna was born without a sexual union, by “mental transmission” from the mind of Vasudeva into the womb of Devaki, his mother. Christ and Krishna were called both God and the Son of God. Both were sent from heaven to earth in the form of a man. Both were called Savior, and the second person of the Trinity. Krishna’s adoptive human father was also a carpenter. A spirit or ghost was their actual father. Krishna and Jesus were of royal descent. Both were visited at birth by wise men and shepherds, guided by a star. Angels in both cases issued a warning that the local dictator planned to kill the baby and had issued a decree for his assassination. The parents fled. Mary and Joseph stayed in Muturea; Krishna’s parents stayed in Mathura. Both Christ and Krishna withdrew to the wilderness as adults, and fasted. Both were identified as “the seed of the woman bruising the serpent’s head.” Jesus was called “the lion of the tribe of Judah.” Krishna was called “the lion of the tribe of Saki.” Both claimed: “I am the Resurrection.” Both were “without sin.” Both were god-men: being considered both human and divine. Both performed many miracles, including the healing of disease. One of the first miracles that both performed was to make a leper whole. Each cured “all manner of diseases.” Both cast out indwelling demons, and raised the dead. Both selected disciples to spread his teachings. Both were meek, and merciful. Both were criticized for associating with sinners. Both celebrated a last supper. Both forgave his enemies. Both were crucified and both were resurrected.

Zarathustra:
Zoroaster was born of a virgin and “immaculate conception by a ray of divine reason.” He was baptized in a river. In his youth he astounded wise men with his wisdom. He was tempted in the wilderness by the devil. He began his ministry at age 30. Zoroaster baptized with water, fire and “holy wind.” He cast out demons and restored the sight to a blind man. He taught about heaven and hell, and revealed mysteries, including resurrection, judgment, salvation and the apocalypse. He had a sacred cup or grail. He was slain. His religion had a eucharist. He was the “Word made flesh.” Zoroaster’s followers expected a “second coming” in the virgin-born Saoshynt or Savior, who is to come in 2341 AD and begin his ministry at age 30, ushering in a golden age.

Attis of Phrygia:
Attis was born on December 25 of the Virgin Nana. He was considered the savior who was slain for the salvation of mankind. His body as bread was eaten by his worshippers. He was both the Divine Son and the Father. On “Black Friday,” he was crucified on a tree, from which his holy blood ran down to redeem the earth. He descended into the underworld. After three days, Attis was resurrected.

Horus:
Born of a virgin, Isis. Only begotten son of the God Osiris. Birth heralded by the star Sirius, the morning star. Ancient Egyptians paraded a manger and child representing Horus through the streets at the time of the winter solstice (about DEC-21). In reality, he had no birth date; he was not a human. Death threat during infancy: Herut tried to have Horus murdered. Handling the threat: The God That tells Horus’ mother “Come, thou goddess Isis, hide thyself with thy child.” An angel tells Jesus’ father to: “Arise and take the young child and his mother and flee into Egypt.” Break in life history: No data between ages of 12 & 30. Age at baptism: 30. Subsequent fate of the baptiser: Beheaded. Walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick, restored sight to the blind. Was crucifed, descended into Hell; resurrected after three days.

 

Interesting how most of these come from areas that the Roman's occupied.



Oh christ.  You are quoting directly from Zeitgeist aren't you. 

For example, the Attis story you quoted is completely fictional.  That's not who or what Attis was.  That's something someone made up, to make attis sound more like Jesus. Banking on the fact that the reader would know nothing about Attis.

That's the case of pretty much literally everything you've listed.

http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/articles/zeitgeist/part-one/#attis

Seriously man... read something actually historically sourced... with facts.  I held such a higher opinion of you then this.

 

Umm that conspiracy site is the one without facts. Krishna was not resurrected????? Sorry that's not true. He's resurrected and even says "I am the resurrected"



theprof00 said:
Kasz216 said:
theprof00 said:
 

Jesus is not in the Jewish texts.

And don't be too sure about what people will believe. The Jews didn't exactly accept the Christians, as shown in the fall of Alexandria.

Let's not forget that most Christian/catholic holidays also occur exactly on previous pagan holidays, and also let's not forget Jesus' similarity to previous religious leaders.

Buddha:

Both went to their temples at the age of twelve, where they are said to have astonished all with their wisdom. Both supposedly fasted in solitude for a long time: Buddha for forty–seven days and Jesus for forty. Both wandered to a fig tree at the conclusion of their fasts. Both were about the same age when they began their public ministry:

“When he [Buddha] went again to the garden he saw a monk who was calm, tranquil, self–possessed, serene, and dignified. The prince, determined to become such a monk, was led to make the great renunciation. At the time he was twenty–nine years of age… “Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age.” (Luke 3:23). Both were tempted by the “devil” at the beginning of their ministry: To Buddha, he said: “Go not forth to adopt a religious life but return to your kingdom, and in seven days you shall become emperor of the world, riding over the four continents.” To Jesus, he said: “All these [kingdoms of the world] I will give you, if you fall down and worship me” (Matthew 4:9). Buddha answered the “devil”: “Get you away from me.”

Jesus responded: “…begone, Satan!” (Matthew 4:10). Both strove to establish a kingdom of heaven on earth. According to the Somadeva (a Buddhist holy book), a Buddhist ascetic’s eye once offended him, so he plucked it out and cast it away. Jesus said: “If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out, and throw it away;.” (Matthew 5:29).

Krishna:
According to Bhagavata Purana some believe that Krishna was born without a sexual union, by “mental transmission” from the mind of Vasudeva into the womb of Devaki, his mother. Christ and Krishna were called both God and the Son of God. Both were sent from heaven to earth in the form of a man. Both were called Savior, and the second person of the Trinity. Krishna’s adoptive human father was also a carpenter. A spirit or ghost was their actual father. Krishna and Jesus were of royal descent. Both were visited at birth by wise men and shepherds, guided by a star. Angels in both cases issued a warning that the local dictator planned to kill the baby and had issued a decree for his assassination. The parents fled. Mary and Joseph stayed in Muturea; Krishna’s parents stayed in Mathura. Both Christ and Krishna withdrew to the wilderness as adults, and fasted. Both were identified as “the seed of the woman bruising the serpent’s head.” Jesus was called “the lion of the tribe of Judah.” Krishna was called “the lion of the tribe of Saki.” Both claimed: “I am the Resurrection.” Both were “without sin.” Both were god-men: being considered both human and divine. Both performed many miracles, including the healing of disease. One of the first miracles that both performed was to make a leper whole. Each cured “all manner of diseases.” Both cast out indwelling demons, and raised the dead. Both selected disciples to spread his teachings. Both were meek, and merciful. Both were criticized for associating with sinners. Both celebrated a last supper. Both forgave his enemies. Both were crucified and both were resurrected.

Zarathustra:
Zoroaster was born of a virgin and “immaculate conception by a ray of divine reason.” He was baptized in a river. In his youth he astounded wise men with his wisdom. He was tempted in the wilderness by the devil. He began his ministry at age 30. Zoroaster baptized with water, fire and “holy wind.” He cast out demons and restored the sight to a blind man. He taught about heaven and hell, and revealed mysteries, including resurrection, judgment, salvation and the apocalypse. He had a sacred cup or grail. He was slain. His religion had a eucharist. He was the “Word made flesh.” Zoroaster’s followers expected a “second coming” in the virgin-born Saoshynt or Savior, who is to come in 2341 AD and begin his ministry at age 30, ushering in a golden age.

Attis of Phrygia:
Attis was born on December 25 of the Virgin Nana. He was considered the savior who was slain for the salvation of mankind. His body as bread was eaten by his worshippers. He was both the Divine Son and the Father. On “Black Friday,” he was crucified on a tree, from which his holy blood ran down to redeem the earth. He descended into the underworld. After three days, Attis was resurrected.

Horus:
Born of a virgin, Isis. Only begotten son of the God Osiris. Birth heralded by the star Sirius, the morning star. Ancient Egyptians paraded a manger and child representing Horus through the streets at the time of the winter solstice (about DEC-21). In reality, he had no birth date; he was not a human. Death threat during infancy: Herut tried to have Horus murdered. Handling the threat: The God That tells Horus’ mother “Come, thou goddess Isis, hide thyself with thy child.” An angel tells Jesus’ father to: “Arise and take the young child and his mother and flee into Egypt.” Break in life history: No data between ages of 12 & 30. Age at baptism: 30. Subsequent fate of the baptiser: Beheaded. Walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick, restored sight to the blind. Was crucifed, descended into Hell; resurrected after three days.

 

Interesting how most of these come from areas that the Roman's occupied.



Oh christ.  You are quoting directly from Zeitgeist aren't you. 

For example, the Attis story you quoted is completely fictional.  That's not who or what Attis was.  That's something someone made up, to make attis sound more like Jesus. Banking on the fact that the reader would know nothing about Attis.

That's the case of pretty much literally everything you've listed.

http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/articles/zeitgeist/part-one/#attis

Seriously man... read something actually historically sourced... with facts.  I held such a higher opinion of you then this.

 

Umm that conspiracy site is the one without facts. Krishna was not resurrected????? Sorry that's not true. He's resurrected and even says "I am the resurrected"

The documents that say that krishna was ressurrect were written after christ



theprof00 said:
 

Umm that conspiracy site is the one without facts. Krishna was not resurrected????? Sorry that's not true. He's resurrected and even says "I am the resurrected"

Incorrect. 

Just to make this apparent, type "Krishna  Ressurection" and you'll not basically every single webpage mentions it outside of the context of Jesus.


If he truley were ressurected, encylopedia pages and just generally Hindi pages would be seen and noted.  Yet his "ressurection" is nowhere in actual legitamite sourced matieral.

Though if you have a source to the Hindi texts... feel free to source away.  Since no actual respectable encyclopedia site (or wikipedia, Zing!) mentions it.

 

I'd suggest checking out the Mahabharata as that's likely what was twisted into a ressurection.  Where he is killed by an arrow.  His "soul" ascends into heaven.

That's not a ressurection.

http://www.indianetzone.com/38/death_lord_krishna.htm



Mmmfishtacos said:
I'm not a religious man, but I do know the Jesus existed. Has anyone here been to Isreal? I have, I walked most of the path that Jesus would have walked charring the cross. There's a part in the old city where it's said he stumbled and reached his hand out and touched the wall to regain his balance. In that very spot on the wall is a near perfect outline of a hand eroded in the wall. I knew nothing about it till I passed and seen a group of people surrounding the area lead by a guide. As I approached the wall to see what the fuss was about I felt a surge of "power" ( really the only way I can describe it) rush over my body, and I felt "awake" like I've never been before in my life. It was probably the single strangest thing to ever happen to me in my life. Then I listened to the guild explain the story to the group of people she was leading. I still don't go to church, is still don't pray or look to sky's for some being to help me throughout my life. But I know Jesus was real. And I don't think you'll find a single Israeli the will deny his existence. They will only deny that he was the son of god. But he was a real person.

You know more than scholars/historian/academics then. They simply conclude there proponderance of evidence is enough to suggest he existed. Those nutbags telling you that Jesus walked here and there are just propagating total bullshit to your face while you suck it up. 

I will never understand why a personal experience so simple as this is compelling to some individuals who don't want to provide naturalistic explanations for what occurred and instead decide to abandon their rationality and substitute mysticism.

Then again, it's kind of like my writing a book about Xenu, WWIII occurring - destroying all records of people, and then concluding that Xenu is more likely to exist than not. It's a conclusion based upon very limited resources.

HeavenlyWarrior said:
I believe in the flood, but not the way the bible describes

The is evidence for a local flood, so perhaps you aren't far off. 



Max King of the Wild said:
Kasz216 said:

Oh christ.  You are quoting directly from Zeitgeist aren't you. 

For example, the Attis story you quoted is completely fictional.  That's not who or what Attis was.  That's something someone made up, to make attis sound more like Jesus. Banking on the fact that the reader would know nothing about Attis.

That's the case of pretty much literally everything you've listed.

http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/articles/zeitgeist/part-one/#attis

Seriously man... read something actually historically sourced... with facts.  I held such a higher opinion of you then this.

 

I dont know anything about Zeitgiest. Is that the athiest equivelant of loose change?


Zeitgeist  is a poorly done set of conspiracy movies that attempt to weave together a whole bunch of things into a glorioulsly paranoid whole but has a lot of trouble keeping the facts straight (well just makes shit up when it is convienient).  It is a really bad source to quote from, and frankly not worth watching.