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Forums - Microsoft - Microsoft to unlock more GPU power for Xbox One developers

ethomaz said:

Machiavellian said:

ethomaz, you seem to have a very big disconnect between what is opinion and what is fact.  You are telling me how the OS works which is your opinion since there is nothing out there from Sony to back up your claim.  How am I spreading misinformation when I have claimed nothing.  I even stated I do not know how resources are allocated within the PS4 because Sony has not stated anything.

If you want people to believe you, I suggest you back up your opinion with proof as I have mentioned so many times.  Give me proof not your opinion or just claim its your opinion.  Why is it so hard for you to admit you are making an opinion.  What is your objective if you cannot provide proof but people should blindly believe your words.  Do you think you are the only higly technical person on this site??

I don't what to people believe me... I'm fine with people not spreading misinformation... everytime you or anybody else tried to do that I will came here to explain how it works based on what was released to the public.

Everything I'm saying here is based in own Sony, Dev, and press articles... you can find if you want.

GPU is 100% for games on PS4.

I'm sorry ethomaz, most of the time I respect your opinion and tech knowledge but this time you seem biased. We can't say if the ps4 uses gpu for the os or not becuse sony doesn't confirm it. The same goes for the ram reserved for the OS, which they never clarified the amount.

What about the ps eye and how much system resources it uses?



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FiliusDei said:

agree. I wonder how much system rsources sony uses for its OS and eye.

From the rumors right now: 2-CPU cores, 2GB RAM (extended to 2.5-3GB of the swap if the Game are not using this RAM).

The games that use the Eye will use the Game resource to handle it... so that's the big difference between thsi can and Kinect... for example you can use the Voice Recognition while playing game on Xbone but not on PS4... you need to stop the game to OS handle Voice Recognition again... so OS is using Game resource to make this happen but it can use Game resource just when no game is running.

So you have two scenarios here...

No game running: You can use the Eye/Voice Recognition anytime while you use the OS.
Game running: Eye/Voice Recognition for OS is disabled and you can use them just if the Game support it.

Game is the priority App for everyting in PS4... OS just can use GPU if no game is running... more CPU core or Memory is only used by OS if no game is running (except memory that have a ~1GB reserved for swap but Game have priority... if a game is using this part the OS can't touch it but if the game is not using the OS can use it).

I think I convered everything we know about this subject.



FiliusDei said:

I'm sorry ethomaz, most of the time I respect your opinion and tech knowledge but this time you seem biased. We can't say if the ps4 uses gpu for the os or not becuse sony doesn't confirm it. The same goes for the ram reserved for the OS, which they never clarified the amount.

What about the ps eye and how much system resources it uses?

Read my previous post... there are limitations with PS Eye when a game is running... it only works if the game support it (the Dev choose to use Game resource to enable the PS Eye).

Now it is a guess... I think MS will try to disable some OS and Kinect features when running a game to free up the GPU in the future... that's what the Eurogamer article is talking about.



Machiavellian said:

Yep, I read those articles.  The first one is interesting if people actually read the article for what it was trying to accomplish not what people wanted it to be, maybe they would have come to a different conclusion if not being console bias.  The article is attempting to compare the scale between the number of GPU cu cores not a parallel between the X1 and PS4.  I find it strange how people can not understand scope.  Here is a statement from the first article.

"To begin with, let's take a look at the choices we made for our target platforms. Let's be clear here - our objective here is not to create complete PC replicas of the consoles - it simply isn't possible. Our focus is the differential in graphics performance based on the available GPU specs. "

So why did that article not talk about ROPs, because it was not the scope of the article.   The article is trying to determine if you actually get 50% return in performance based on GPU cu cores alone and the data did not prove that.  I will say it again, Scope is very important when reading anything from anyone.

On the second article, how was it disproven.  You have Richard with his source and you have people on GAF stating something else.  In the middle you have Sony who did not either disprove or approve anything.  Richard stated he was given Sony documents from his source.  The GAF sources from my memory (have to recheck) stated they are able to use 6GB of memory but that does not disprove what Richard wrote.  

This is no different than how people confirmed MS uses 3GB for the X1 OS.  Here is an article on that very point

"In a long interview today Marc Whitten of Microsoft confirmed how much of the Xbox One’s 8GB RAM will be taken up by the OS and games. He did this indirectly by not denying past rumors of the RAM being broken down this way. He was directly asked if 3GB RAM was used for the OS and he shyed away from answering, hinting that it may be true."

If I were to go by that logic than, I would say that Sony also prove Richard right by not disproving the 4.5 guaranteed for developers since they did not state it was not true.

Here is Sony response which I take more than posters on GAF

"We would like to clear up a misunderstanding regarding our "direct" and "flexible" memory systems. The article states that "flexible" memory is borrowed from the OS, and must be returned when requested - that's not actually the case.

The actual true distinction is that:

  • "Direct Memory" is memory allocated under the traditional video game model, so the game controls all aspects of its allocation
  • "Flexible Memory" is memory managed by the PS4 OS on the game's behalf, and allows games to use some very nice FreeBSD virtual memory functionality. However this memory is 100 per cent the game's memory, and is never used by the OS, and as it is the game's memory it should be easy for every developer to use it.

We have no comment to make on the amount of memory reserved by the system or what it is used for."

Seems like the same situation to me but then again, I guess if you are console bias you believe one statement over another based on which console corporation you trust.

Forget console bias, the first article was simple incompetence. How are ROPs not part of the "graphics performance"? They're a pretty essential part. If he only wanted to test the performance of Compute Units he should have made that clear, but he said "graphics performance based on available GPU specs". That's not restricted to compute units, he needs to take into account ROPs and texture units which he completely fails to even mention. The following choice of cards was ridiculous at best and the result was a useless metric, even "in theory". It's a sloppy investigation or a preliminary experiment at best.

As for the second article, you have developers who've worked on the PS4 coming out and claiming the article was false:

If you don't want to believe a PS4 developer then I don't know what to tell you.



ethomaz said:

Machiavellian said:

ethomaz, you seem to have a very big disconnect between what is opinion and what is fact.  You are telling me how the OS works which is your opinion since there is nothing out there from Sony to back up your claim.  How am I spreading misinformation when I have claimed nothing.  I even stated I do not know how resources are allocated within the PS4 because Sony has not stated anything.

If you want people to believe you, I suggest you back up your opinion with proof as I have mentioned so many times.  Give me proof not your opinion or just claim its your opinion.  Why is it so hard for you to admit you are making an opinion.  What is your objective if you cannot provide proof but people should blindly believe your words.  Do you think you are the only higly technical person on this site??

I don't what to people believe me... I'm fine with people not spreading misinformation... everytime you or anybody else tried to do that I will came here to explain how it works based on what was released to the public.

Everything I'm saying here is based in own Sony, Dev, and press articles... you can find if you want.

GPU is 100% for games on PS4.

If you are fine with people not spreading misinformation then you should practice what you preach.  You seem to be cool with finding proof for negative stuff but when pressed to find proof on your opinion, you seem to clam up pretty quick.  If this info is so public, I am sure a few secs in google should support your words.

@bolded: whatever man, I read all the articles as I mentioned. 



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ethomaz said:

FiliusDei said:

I'm sorry ethomaz, most of the time I respect your opinion and tech knowledge but this time you seem biased. We can't say if the ps4 uses gpu for the os or not becuse sony doesn't confirm it. The same goes for the ram reserved for the OS, which they never clarified the amount.

What about the ps eye and how much system resources it uses?

Read my previous post... there are limitations with PS Eye when a game is running... it only works if the game support it (the Dev choose to use Game resource to enable the PS Eye).

Now it is a guess... I think MS will try to disable some OS and Kinect features when running a game to free up the GPU in the future... that's what the Eurogamer article is talking about.


i hope that's true about the eye and they make it official. Having a camara has been a horrible idea for MS. They should have never brought that crap into nextgen.



ethomaz said:

FiliusDei said:

agree. I wonder how much system rsources sony uses for its OS and eye.

From the rumors right now: 2-CPU cores, 2GB RAM (extended to 2.5-3GB of the swap if the Game are not using this RAM).

The games that use the Eye will use the Game resource to handle it... so that's the big difference between thsi can and Kinect... for example you can use the Voice Recognition while playing game on Xbone but not on PS4... you need to stop the game to OS handle Voice Recognition again... so OS is using Game resource to make this happen but it can use Game resource just when no game is running.

So you have two scenarios here...

No game running: You can use the Eye/Voice Recognition anytime while you use the OS.
Game running: Eye/Voice Recognition for OS is disabled and you can use them just if the Game support it.

Game is the priority App for everyting in PS4... OS just can use GPU if no game is running... more CPU core or Memory is only used by OS if no game is running (except memory that have a ~1GB reserved for swap but Game have priority... if a game is using this part the OS can't touch it but if the game is not using the OS can use it).

I think I convered everything we know about this subject.

@Bolded: More guessing.  Where has Sony confirmed how voice navigation will or will not work.  Where has Sony stated you have to completly leave a game in order to use the PSeye which makes no sense if you can use it before going into a game.  How is Sony OS switching between its game and App OS and how do they accomplish this task. Why reserve 2 CPU cores if not to run something like the PSeye within or outside of a game.  If the game is the top priority, then there would be no need to reserve any CPU cores.  You could use the Arm chip to save the state of the game and release the CPU and memory at that point.



Scoobes said:
Forget console bias, the first article was simple incompetence. How are ROPs not part of the "graphics performance"? They're a pretty essential part. If he only wanted to test the performance of Compute Units he should have made that clear, but he said "graphics performance based on available GPU specs". That's not restricted to compute units, he needs to take into account ROPs and texture units which he completely fails to even mention. The following choice of cards was ridiculous at best and the result was a useless metric, even "in theory". It's a sloppy investigation or a preliminary experiment at best.

As for the second article, you have developers who've worked on the PS4 coming out and claiming the article was false:

If you don't want to believe a PS4 developer then I don't know what to tell you.


Actually ROPs does not play into the scope of the article.  The article was not on total GPU performance as the quote I posted explained.  It was scoped to guage GPU scale based on the number of CUs.  This is what I am talking about.  You went into reading the article based on what you thought it was about, instead of what the scope of the article tried to accomplish.  One of the main things the net has argued over is that the PS4 has a significant amount of GPU TFlop power.  The article tried to guage how much scale does having more GPU grunt actually provide.

 Unless the PS4 and X1 is going to be using displays past 1080p, ROPs really do not play that much of a difference.

For the second article, Richard stated he has developers working on the PS4 giving him information.  Whats the difference.  The difference would be who you believe more than anything else.  The difference I looked at is from the source.which is Sony.  Sony could have easily cleared all that up but went the no comment line.  If no comment speaks volumns for MS, it should do the same for Sony.

As to your link from Brian Provinciano, who said he was writing a full editorial on the subject.  Did you read that editorial.  He stated NOTHING to disprove the Ram allocations.

Here is the link from Brian editorial

http://retrocityrampage.com/blog/2013/07/522/



Machiavellian said:

@Bolded: More guessing.  Where has Sony confirmed how voice navigation will or will not work.  Where has Sony stated you have to completly leave a game in order to use the PSeye which makes no sense if you can use it before going into a game.  How is Sony OS switching between its game and App OS and how do they accomplish this task. Why reserve 2 CPU cores if not to run something like the PSeye within or outside of a game.  If the game is the top priority, then there would be no need to reserve any CPU cores.  You could use the Arm chip to save the state of the game and release the CPU and memory at that point.

No guesses.

Voice navigation won't ready for the launch... it is a post-launch update... the feature didn't exists in the OS for now.

Yeah... is only works while your running a game if the dev implemented support to it (most game won't use)... the OS will only enable voice navigation when you are not runing a game.

The OS runs in the CPU-core... you have tasks running in background to make the OS up for I don't know receive messages, text chat, use the web browser, etc... you can use them while playing a game... the ARM is for others taks like background download, instant power on, etc... the OS runs over reserved CPU-cores and RAM.

The voice navigation feature was not planned... so there is no resouce reserved to it... Sony will use the Game resource... so when a game is running you can't use it but when there is no game running you can use it... excemptions are the game with support like the games that devs choose to give support... the dev choose to use some Game resource to use these features.

The game is top priority so because that the OS can't use Game resources when there is a game running.



Game (Killzone: SF) using at max 6-CPU cores... 2-CPU cores are reserved to OS... it is all public info lol.

You can see more here:

http://www.guerrilla-games.com/presentations/Valient_Killzone_Shadow_Fall_Demo_Postmortem.pdf
http://www.guerrilla-games.com/presentations/Valient_Killzone_Shadow_Fall_Demo_Postmortem.pptx