By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Microsoft - Microsoft’s Phil Harrison Explains that Xbox One’s Cloud Can Actually Improve Graphics

Tagged games:

If anyone remembers how much Phil Harrison built up PlayStation Home they would not listen to anything that comes out of his mouth. He is a master spin artist and MS is all the worse for having hired him fresh off his departure from Sony.



Around the Network
Zappykins said:
Some of the comments here - people can't see the future that is about to run them over

And some people seem to think hoverboards will be real, too.

Zappykins said:
While the final rendering of the GPU is important, it has become becoming less important for quality graphics since things started going 3D. So much of what is important - such as lighting, reflections etc. has already been shown to work quite well in the cloud - even at a ridiculously slow 1 second of latency. The final picture is rendered by the GPU - but setting the stage is becoming more dependent on other systems and processes.

Really?, GPU processing is becoming less important?, Is that way as games get more and more advanced it's the CPU thats becoming less important, as illustrated by huge variations of CPU on certain games having little to no effect on framerates?.

Cloud processing of graphical data is in its infancy, and for the most part testing of cloud processing has been done on internal networks where latancy can be kept to a minimum, the throughput of data available to process job pools is limited in a real world environment and the nature of games is such that a large portion of what needs to be processed may not even end up being used by the GPU, rendering locally, on higher spec hardware this is not an issue, but if youre sending jobs for certain tasks to a server and then that data becomes redundant, youre essentially wasting network resources and server time on data that isnt really needed anymore, there is a reason why cloud processing is mainly used for background processes, that reason is that the processes are required regardless of user input, when microsoft talks up cloud processing as "allowing better graphics", they mean indirectly, by aleviating some of loud from the CPU or compute units to an external server so the local machine can better handle the local data.

This is not unique to the xbox one, it can be done on any system with network connectivity and a server infrastructure, essentially you could rent amazon servers and do the exact same thing for the 3DS and Vita, or even the DS and PSP if you really wanted, but people dont, because the only real use it has is in providing contiguous data storage for online worlds, much like pretty much every MMO has done since the beginning of time, the only difference is rather than a game specific server they will be using the xbox live network instead.

Zappykins said:
When streaming off Flash would sputter and stall, Microsoft released Silverlight - which pretty much everyone uses for streaming (the Xbox, PC, Roku, PS3, Blu-ray Players, etc.) - and we now have a streaming entertainment age.

Thats an inaccurate claim, the PS3 does not directly support silverlight and only intel and broadcom based blu-ray players support it, the rest use java or legacy implamentations of flash, PC uses whatever the user installs.

PS3 has a very lose implamentation through Netflix only - and Netflix are dumping (or may already have) silverlight in favor of HTML5

Zappykins said:
I understand many people don’t understand, can’t see, or do not believe it, and fortunately, most of them are not at a position to stop it from happening. I am glad a new frontier in gaming is being pushed by Microsoft. It all comes back to my motto:

Saying people do not understand does not add any credence to your words or make you any more knowledgable than them, nor does tacking your name on to another persons motto, its okay to not understand, rather than be offended when you are corrected or told differently, or see it as a personal attack or an attack on your prefered console, learn from it.

But mainly, please don't treat others like theyre idiots when the things you say arent any more logical or factual, because it helps absolutely nobody, not you, not them, nobody.



nightsurge said:
fatslob-:O said:
There is no way microsoft can improve rendering on the xbone with cloud unless microsoft decides to employ rendering servers to every city or town to mitigate the transfer times of each partial frames. Even if microsoft did choose to do it they would suffer losses left and right because now they have to spend more money to improve their rendering infrastructure to gain a noticeable boosts in performance plus they will only be making losses when attempting this strategy.

You missed the mark entirely. They aren't using the cloud to render... they are using it to offload processing (mostly cpu intensive stuff) to free up local resources for better graphics.

That's very possible.

I understood it that way too, that's why I'm a little bit pissed off at that "secret sauce" PR crap, it's not some black magic or secret additional component (that Penello himself definitively debunked), but "just" a simple and intelligent use of the cloud ("just" is an understatement, in engineering simplicity coupled with efficiency is GOLD, but , alas, it's not a selling argument for die-hard technophile fans. Obviously I also admire PS4 simplicity and power and AMD in general for what it was able to squeeze out of chips meant to be low-price and low-power consumption, and actually I'd prefer PS4 to depend less on the net, having an internet connection with ping and bandwidth that aren't good enough, but anyway kudos to MS for a simple and intelligent idea).



Stwike him, Centuwion. Stwike him vewy wuffly! (Pontius Pilate, "Life of Brian")
A fart without stink is like a sky without stars.
TGS, Third Grade Shooter: brand new genre invented by Kevin Butler exclusively for Natal WiiToo Kinect. PEW! PEW-PEW-PEW! 
 


Frequency said:
Zappykins said:
Some of the comments here - people can't see the future that is about to run them over

And some people seem to think hoverboards will be real, too.



Hey buddy, Hoverboards are so 2010:



 

Really not sure I see any point of Consol over PC's since Kinect, Wii and other alternative ways to play have been abandoned. 

Top 50 'most fun' game list coming soon!

 

Tell me a funny joke!

LOL @ Zappykins.



Around the Network

So what happens when I'm playing a game and my internet cuts out? Does the enemy get dumb and the game gets ugly?



 

UltimateUnknown said:
So what happens when I'm playing a game and my internet cuts out? Does the enemy get dumb and the game gets ugly?


Not to mention you would split your user base. Da cloud is nothing more then MS PR. No devs will utilize the cloud when many of your customer base will be playing offline. it would only work with an always online system, like they originally planned.



Frequency said:
Adinnieken said:
the-pi-guy said:

Does this actually mean that the cloud can boost graphics or does it mean that the cloud can offload some of the processes from the box, so that the box itself has more to give to graphics?  

This is what Nvidia is doing. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkSSUChfjLk


Yes, offloading to a networked server, these demonstrations are done on a local network, not a standard ISP internet connection, and even WITH the processes being done locally they still ended up with 100-500ms latency on processing because of the time wasted collecting pools of data to process, transmitting that data, having the data processed externally, then receiving that processed data back and, assuming they didnt bother with error control to make sure received packets were correct (hashing), finally be used by the gpu, the process isnt perfect and never will be, for closed networks, so the chances of it ever being a viable solution for realtime graphics processing on standard network connections pretty much rules out this generation or the next 2 or 3 being able to use it.

I am more than happy to go in to great detail to show you all exactly why cloud processing for live graphics processing isnt going to happen, and why it will at best be used for storing non-critical data such as npc text and player stats rather than processing actual, genuine, graphical processes.

TCP/IP ensures packets are correctly received.  Hashing is used to ensure that the content requested is the same as the content sent (a checksum).  It is not error correction.

You didn't watch the video or listen to it.  It's sent back down as a video stream.  The video stream is then processed on the local system.  The point of the video was to demonstrate the quality based on the latency.  Even the at 1000ms latency (30FPS) it actually offered decent quality.  That said, the highest average latency in the US is 70ms.  While the average lowest is 12ms.  Theorethically one could do lighting rendering with 100ms latency and still offer a high quality image.  Especially if, as with the Xbox One, you have a separate video stream processor that allows you to interpolate frames to increase the frame rate.   



Zappykins said:
Frequency said:
Zappykins said:
Some of the comments here - people can't see the future that is about to run them over

And some people seem to think hoverboards will be real, too.



Hey buddy, Hoverboards are so 2010:

Yes, because you can totally ride it down the road without specially implanted magnets, right?



iamdeath said:
LOL @ Zappykins.

Say CHEESE! <click>





 

Really not sure I see any point of Consol over PC's since Kinect, Wii and other alternative ways to play have been abandoned. 

Top 50 'most fun' game list coming soon!

 

Tell me a funny joke!