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Forums - Gaming - Valve Steambox could outpower XB1 and PS4, according to CGM

Tagged games:

 

Will you be buying one, or do you even care?

Hell yeah! 34 8.85%
 
Mabye 32 8.33%
 
Want to see some legit news first 75 19.53%
 
No 44 11.46%
 
Don't even care 72 18.75%
 
PS4 all the way! 92 23.96%
 
XB1 all the way! 15 3.91%
 
PC all the way! 18 4.69%
 
Total:382
Pemalite said:
fatslob-:O said:

You realize that the WII U cpu's isn't much different from the WII's right ? Otherwise it would break compatibility like a b#tch LOL.

We already have a WII emulator called Dolphin so I don't know if the programmers their could modify the cpu modules a bit to act like the WII U. 

@Bold Are you forgetting about the raw bandwidth (in the main memory ofcourse) requirements to emulate the xbone or PS4. Hell I don't even think DDR5 will solve the issues of bandwidth and I wouldn't underestimate the memory set up of the PS4 also considering that APU has more in common with Kaveri rather than Llano or kabini and the xbone's secondary cache is pretty damn fast.


Doesn't matter if the Wii U's CPU is an evolutionary step up from the Wii's CPU, it's still going to be more demanding to emulate than Jaguar which won't need to be emulated.

Memory Bandwidth isn't an issue, the PC has more Bandwidth on it's GPU's (Which is where most of the bandwidth demands will lay) than either console and by almost 100GB/s currently, that delta will increase every year.
CPU's are generally not that bandwidth hungry.

You can`t keep relying on a dedicated GPU bandwidth which separated from the mother board and bound by the PCB`s GPU. What will PC`s do if we find out the PS4`s or possibly the xbone`s GPU and CPU will share physical and virtual memory seemlessly. This would mean that some workloads normally done on the PS4 and xbone will translate to having latency issues by accessing the dedicated GPU`s data on PC. You didn`t pay attention to the fact that high bandwidth is needed for the motherboards main memory and not the dedicated GPU memory in order to avoid that penalty of having alot of access latencies for some workloads that these consoles might do. BTW your underestimating x86 emulation by alot, if that dev blueshogun is having difficulties emulating the original xbox what makes you think doing it for the jaguar cores will be any easier ?

Edit: The PS4 and the xbone ain't exactly like your traditional PC's do note that they have one thing different and that is graphics being integrated to the silicon and this time it isn't like amd's older apu architectures like Llano.

Edit 2: There memory architectures are somewhat different than your PC's BTW.



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pezus said:
FrancisNobleman said:
well the people going for the best console tech wise, this coming gen, shall be excited by this.


because those people do not care about games, they care about having the most powerful console, even if it is a flop with no games.

That doesn't make sense, though. This will have loads of games.

always remind yourself to bring the sarcasm detector to vgchartz, son.



fatslob-:O said:
Pemalite said:
fatslob-:O said:

You realize that the WII U cpu's isn't much different from the WII's right ? Otherwise it would break compatibility like a b#tch LOL.

We already have a WII emulator called Dolphin so I don't know if the programmers their could modify the cpu modules a bit to act like the WII U. 

@Bold Are you forgetting about the raw bandwidth (in the main memory ofcourse) requirements to emulate the xbone or PS4. Hell I don't even think DDR5 will solve the issues of bandwidth and I wouldn't underestimate the memory set up of the PS4 also considering that APU has more in common with Kaveri rather than Llano or kabini and the xbone's secondary cache is pretty damn fast.


Doesn't matter if the Wii U's CPU is an evolutionary step up from the Wii's CPU, it's still going to be more demanding to emulate than Jaguar which won't need to be emulated.

Memory Bandwidth isn't an issue, the PC has more Bandwidth on it's GPU's (Which is where most of the bandwidth demands will lay) than either console and by almost 100GB/s currently, that delta will increase every year.
CPU's are generally not that bandwidth hungry.

You can`t keep relying on a dedicated GPU bandwidth which separated from the mother board and bound by the PCB`s GPU. What will PC`s do if we find out the PS4`s or possibly the xbone`s GPU and CPU will share physical and virtual memory seemlessly. This would mean that some workloads normally done on the PS4 and xbone will translate to having latency issues by accessing the dedicated GPU`s data on PC. You didn`t pay attention to the fact that high bandwidth is needed for the motherboards main memory and not the dedicated GPU memory in order to avoid that penalty of having alot of access latencies for some workloads that these consoles might do. BTW your underestimating x86 emulation by alot, if that dev blueshogun is having difficulties emulating the original xbox what makes you think doing it for the jaguar cores will be any easier ?

Edit: The PS4 and the xbone ain't exactly like your traditional PC's do note that they have one thing different and that is graphics being integrated to the silicon and this time it isn't like amd's older apu architectures like Llano.

Edit 2: There memory architectures are somewhat different than your PC's BTW.


Doesn't matter.
Whoever writes the emulator can intercept the calls and map the pages so it ends up in the right place.

The CPU doesn't need to be emulated at all.

The single biggest limiter that has and will always be with emulation is translating instructions from one CPU architecture to another.
The hardest thing for the Xbox One and Playstation 4 will not be emulating the hardware environment, but the software one, the software layers this next generation is going to be a stupidly large leap, bandwidth is only one piece of the story.
And PC's move quickly, never standing still, Huma/Numa isn't going to make it impossible, far from it, the next generation consoles have a low-end CPU and Mid-range Graphics processors, that 8Gb of ram? It ain't all for games, that 176Gb/s of bandwidth? It ain't all for games or the GPU, the one writing the emulator will understand this.

As for the origional Xbox emulation, there are no difficulties, the demand is just stupidly limited because most of the games were on PC anyway, lets not forget the small games library to begin with and then you just see there ain't no point.
There were a few games that were Xbox only, some smart chap actually wrote a GPU wrapper and emulated the software environment and threw it into an executable that will run on any PC with the game included and it was fast.




www.youtube.com/@Pemalite

the-pi-guy said:

So then why is blueshogun96(He's one of the guys to actually work on an Xbox emulator) saying differently? 


Not as much documentation around in comparison to other consoles on the hardware and software environments.
Other emulator developers have stated it's relatively easy in comparison to other systems.

But they don't need to emulate the CPU, it's the GPU and it's independant blocks and nVidia's Soundstorm and other chips that needs the work, which was my point to begin with.




www.youtube.com/@Pemalite

Pemalite said:
fatslob-:O said:
Pemalite said:
fatslob-:O said:

You realize that the WII U cpu's isn't much different from the WII's right ? Otherwise it would break compatibility like a b#tch LOL.

We already have a WII emulator called Dolphin so I don't know if the programmers their could modify the cpu modules a bit to act like the WII U. 

@Bold Are you forgetting about the raw bandwidth (in the main memory ofcourse) requirements to emulate the xbone or PS4. Hell I don't even think DDR5 will solve the issues of bandwidth and I wouldn't underestimate the memory set up of the PS4 also considering that APU has more in common with Kaveri rather than Llano or kabini and the xbone's secondary cache is pretty damn fast.


Doesn't matter if the Wii U's CPU is an evolutionary step up from the Wii's CPU, it's still going to be more demanding to emulate than Jaguar which won't need to be emulated.

Memory Bandwidth isn't an issue, the PC has more Bandwidth on it's GPU's (Which is where most of the bandwidth demands will lay) than either console and by almost 100GB/s currently, that delta will increase every year.
CPU's are generally not that bandwidth hungry.

You can`t keep relying on a dedicated GPU bandwidth which separated from the mother board and bound by the PCB`s GPU. What will PC`s do if we find out the PS4`s or possibly the xbone`s GPU and CPU will share physical and virtual memory seemlessly. This would mean that some workloads normally done on the PS4 and xbone will translate to having latency issues by accessing the dedicated GPU`s data on PC. You didn`t pay attention to the fact that high bandwidth is needed for the motherboards main memory and not the dedicated GPU memory in order to avoid that penalty of having alot of access latencies for some workloads that these consoles might do. BTW your underestimating x86 emulation by alot, if that dev blueshogun is having difficulties emulating the original xbox what makes you think doing it for the jaguar cores will be any easier ?

Edit: The PS4 and the xbone ain't exactly like your traditional PC's do note that they have one thing different and that is graphics being integrated to the silicon and this time it isn't like amd's older apu architectures like Llano.

Edit 2: There memory architectures are somewhat different than your PC's BTW.


Doesn't matter.
Whoever writes the emulator can intercept the calls and map the pages so it ends up in the right place. #1

The CPU doesn't need to be emulated at all. #2

The single biggest limiter that has and will always be with emulation is translating instructions from one CPU architecture to another.
The hardest thing for the Xbox One and Playstation 4 will not be emulating the hardware environment, but the software one, the software layers this next generation is going to be a stupidly large leap, bandwidth is only one piece of the story.
And PC's move quickly, never standing still, Huma/Numa isn't going to make it impossible, far from it, the next generation consoles have a low-end CPU and Mid-range Graphics processors, that 8Gb of ram? It ain't all for games, that 176Gb/s of bandwidth? It ain't all for games or the GPU, the one writing the emulator will understand this. #3

As for the origional Xbox emulation, there are no difficulties, the demand is just stupidly limited because most of the games were on PC anyway, lets not forget the small games library to begin with and then you just see there ain't no point.
There were a few games that were Xbox only, some smart chap actually wrote a GPU wrapper and emulated the software environment and threw it into an executable that will run on any PC with the game included and it was fast.

@Bold 1 So latencies between the cpu and dedicated gpu don't matter ? Even when mapping the memory the gpu still has some hefty access times to the main memory.

@Bold 2 You didn't read about the troubles that BlueShogun had attempting to emulate a 733mhz pentium 3 processor? (You still don't know that it needs to be emulated plus we don't have decent or good documentation on how an x86 processor works. Fine if you think its easy to emulate x86 yourself then why not try it yourself or even better go and ask BlueShogun why you need to do this. http://shogun3d-cxbx.blogspot.ca/)

@Bold 3 Why are you discounting hUMA or these consoles memory set ups ? It gives me the impression that you don't what it does. If you think PC hardware is always going to evolve your sadly going to be mistaken when we are out of process node shrinks by 2023(estimate). (Moore's law or observation technically is already dying now as we speak.)

@Last bold Is that an excuse as to why we can't emulate xbox ? Once again go and ask the man himself BlueShogun since he knows more about it than I do. Again if its sooo easy wouldn't it be achieveable with a smaller team ?

 

 



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fatslob-:O said:

@Bold 1 So latencies between the cpu and dedicated gpu don't matter ? Even when mapping the memory the gpu still has some hefty access times to the main memory.


Of course it matters, just not as much as you think.
The PC has a cache hierachy for a reason, to hide latencies and bandwidth deficits of each successive level of memory.
Basically from slowest (Highest latency, cheap, large in size.) to fastest (Lowest latency, expensive, small in size.)

fatslob-:O said:

@Bold 2 You didn't read about the troubles that BlueShogun had attempting to emulate a 733mhz pentium 3 processor? (You still don't know that it needs to be emulated plus we don't have decent or good documentation on how an x86 processor works. Fine if you think its easy to emulate x86 yourself then why not try it yourself or even better go and ask BlueShogun why you need to do this. http://shogun3d-cxbx.blogspot.ca/)


And other Xbox emulators don't emulate the Pentium 3/Celeron Hybrid processor at all.

There is enough information about the high level API's that you don't need to emulate the metal which is what they do when emulating other platforms, of course you loose accuracy, however that comes with it's own caviets like timing issues and texture corruption, but people have gotten around it.

I think you are getting yourself confused on the different methods you can go about to emulate a platform.


fatslob-:O said:

@Bold 3 Why are you discounting hUMA or these consoles memory set ups ? It gives me the impression that you don't what it does. If you think PC hardware is always going to evolve your sadly going to be mistaken when we are out of process node shrinks by 2023(estimate). (Moore's law or observation technically is already dying now as we speak.)


I'm not, you're putting words in my mouth.





www.youtube.com/@Pemalite

Until they release this thing in stores where it sits along side the PS4, it won't make a dent.



Pemalite said:


And other Xbox emulators don't emulate the Pentium 3/Celeron Hybrid processor at all.

There is enough information about the high level API's that you don't need to emulate the metal which is what they do when emulating other platforms, of course you loose accuracy, however that comes with it's own caviets like timing issues and texture corruption, but people have gotten around it.

I think you are getting yourself confused on the different methods you can go about to emulate a platform.


 

I don't know about that statement but why does blueshogun96's post imply that you need to emulate the xbox's cpu such as "In short, the Xbox's CPU can be emulated, but not accurately."thttp://www.ngemu.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132032

Edit: He pretty much told us to get that xbox is a dressed up PC so it is easy to emulate crap out of our heads. I'm not saying that PS4 and xbone is harder to emulate but rather I'm trying to illustrate the fact that your pretty naive about xbox or x86 emulation. 

The reasons why I said the WII U would be easier to emulate has to do with the fact that the dolphin team pretty much figured out the wii's cpu and I'm pretty sure that the wii u's cpu architecure has to be similar to the wii in order to play wii games. 

Edit: I was pretty much in the same stance as you when I thought why the xbox could be emulated easily. I'm pretty sure "there is no demand for xbox emulation" sounds like an excuse rather than an actual reason and a small team like cxbx can manage it and even then they had 5 or more years and they have yet to still make tenfold of a progress. 



That link just reinforces my argument.




www.youtube.com/@Pemalite

Pemalite said:

That link just reinforces my argument.

I don't know about you but accuracy is important for emulation and plus your point is that we don't need to emulate x86 processors was pretty rash statement from yourself.