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Forums - Politics Discussion - What would happen to the USA if we ended prohibition right now?

Mr Khan said:
snyps said:
Mr Khan said:
The bureau of ATF exists for a reason: just because certain, easily abusable items (alcohol, tobacco, firearms) are legal does not mean that the black market has gone away, namely because these things are regulated still for public safety (fighting against moonshine made with engine coolant). While legalization will make strides against use by children and such, it will not vanish entirely.



And the ATF does a nice job at it (barring the exceptions like waco tx and ruby ridge and others). Don't you think the ATF can handle this?

That is true. While i could probably have some heroin on hand in 24 hours if I asked some shadier acquaintances of friends of mine, i wouldn't know where to begin to ask for white lightning around here.


Though that's largely because Moonshine is ridiculiously overkill and beer is so socially acceptable it's extremely cheap.

 

If Heroin is going to be like $2-3 bucks a needle, sure there won't be any illegal trade of it going on.  Nobody actually needs moonshine to get drunk.



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SamuelRSmith said:
Mexican drug cartels will be stopped in their tracks. Significantly reducing the murder rate in Mexico, and giving that country a chance to fight against corruption. Lower crime and lower corruption = better prospects for growth. Better prospects for growth = fewer fleeing Mexicans = fewer illegal immigrants in the USA = less money spent by the Feds on border security and customs/immigration.

Many terrorist organisations in the Middle-East use heroin proceeds for their funding. Eliminate or reduce that profit stream means less money for them, and so fewer resources. Stability in the Middle East just become a lot more easy.

Marijuana is showing to have more and more medical benefits. This massively reduces healthcare costs for those afflictions, and tend to have fewer side effects than the regular medication. Hemp, too, can be used to produce many things - paper, rope, plastics, shampoos, clothing, etc. Some of these products can be created using hemp in a far more environmentally-friendly manner (and for cheap), than the current legal means.

More people are arrested in the USA each year than for all violent crimes. A person is arrested on a drug charge every 19 seconds in America. Meanwhile, the vast majority of burglaries, murders, and rapes go unsolved. Not only will legalizing drugs reduce the murder/burglary rates, but there will be a higher allocation of resources towards solving these things, now that drug crime is off the budget books.

People's futures will also stop being ruined. Oh, right, you're smoking pot. That's bad for you. To help you, I'm going to throw you in a rape cage for X amount of years, and put a permanent black mark against your name so that when you get out, it'll be harder for you to find a job. You really think if Obama had been caught under the drug laws he enforces - for his weed and coke as a teen - he'd be sitting the President's chair right now? You really think a man who's served time in prison would be able to win an election?

Bush got in trouble for drugs in his youth too. It really just depends on who you know; if you've got good connections, many criminal histories (especially comparatively victimless crimes like drug use) can be overlooked, but without connections, even a clean slate and strong credentials will get you nowhere (yay me).

I agree with many of your points, but this dodges the issue of drugs that seriously mess you up: crystal meth, heroin, bath salts, crack. In some cases the potential for serious abuse is still worthy of keeping it under wraps



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

I would love to get into a discussion today about the best most effective way to tax and regulate. First, a final reflection on current prohibition of consentual adult behavior. Mandatory-minimum sentencing has done little to address the very real problem of drug abuse, while also doing great damage by destroying so many lives. Each case should be judged on its own merits, yet mandatory minimums prevent this from happening. The Justice Safety Valve Act will be an important step in improving justice in our nation’s courtrooms.





Legal or not, I'll stay as far away from them as possible.



VGPolyglot said:
Legal or not, I'll stay as far away from them as possible.



This. I had a guy offer me crystal meth over the phone yesterday. He was trying to buy my Wii from craigslist. I said no, not because it's illegal, because i don't want to mess my life up.



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Banning stuff doesn't really work. So if you want to eliminate usage of damaging drugs, that's probably not your best option.

Anyway, I'm pretty much for the legalization of all drugs. I would much prefer a nonviolent means of reducing drug usage, and the government intervention has not proven to be nonviolent or effective.



Kasz216 said:
badgenome said:
snyps said:

If you want a drink of alcohol, would you rather go to a tavern/store? Or Billy Bob's shack in the back? I'm sure opium users would rather go to a legal opium den than a abandoned house in crack alley. Don't you think?

Perhaps. But when people are generally trying to sell drug legalization, they say, "Tax and regulate that shit!" If the taxes are too high or the regulation is too strict, and there's already a well developed black market in place, nothing much will change.

Also, regulation generally means some kind of age limit. So underaged users will still need to avail themselves of the black market.


Yep... and half of the worst drugs are so fucking cheap that the black market would still end up being a huge thing... unless people are cool with cocaine and Meth that's cheaper than cigarretes.



What do you think a decent regulation/tax would be? We can only theorize or model after amsterdam.. but I'm sure what ever We come up with it's gotta be better than prohibition.

How about...

Identifie the goal of the initiative and authorize the State Liquor Control Board to regulate and tax each drug for persons twenty-one years of age and older, and add a new threshold for driving under the influence of each drug.

Establish various definitions.

Establish a license system for drug producers, processors, and retailers. Initial licenses shall be $250 with an annual renewal fee of $1000. Rules prohibit producers and processors from having any financial interest in retailers, much like the three-tier system for hard liquor in control states. Also make it clear that selling or distributing unlicensed drugs remains illegal, setting limits on the maximum amount one may possess. In the case of marijuana, Adults 21 years or older may possess up to "one ounce of useable marijuana", 16 ounces of marijuana-infused product in solid form, 72 ounces of marijuana-infused product in liquid form or "any combination" of all three. Also authorize Liquor Enforcement Officers to enforce the Uniform Controlled Substances Act. Previous to this Liquor Enforcement Officers could only enforce alcohol and tobacco laws.

Establish a "dedicated drug fund" for all revenue received by the liquor control board, and explicitly earmarks any surplus from this new revenue for health care (55%), drug abuse treatment and education (25%), with 1% for drug-related research at State Universities, most of the remainder going to the state general fund.

Again, for the case of marijuana. Set a per se DUI limit of "delta-9" THC levels at greater than or equal to 5 nanograms per milliliter of blood (5 ng/mL). The metabolite THC-COOH, also known as carboxy-THC" is explicitly excluded from consideration.

Since i know little about other drugs, I'll let some one else theorize about the maximum posession and dui limits of the harder drugs. But it's fair to assume a maximum possession limit of 1 gram of speed, heroin, crack, or coke. And a zero tolerance in dui.

As well, new specialized taverns will need to be created for each specific drug use.

Prices should be around $100 per gram of hard drugs. $100 per ounce of middle grade marijuana. $250 per ounce of high grade marijuana.

What do you think about that?



State of Washington Initiative 502 "on marijuana reform"
March 2012 analysis by the state Office of Financial Management estimated annual revenues above $560 million for the first full year, rising thereafter.[10] February 2011 analysis of the similar Washington House Bill 1550 estimated annual state and county law-enforcement savings of approximately $22 million.[11][12] OFM's final, official analysis did not include law-enforcement savings, but estimated five-year revenues at approximately $1.9 billion from an assumed retail price of $12 per gram.[13][14][15] Proponents of I-502 have posted a pie chart showing annual dollar-per-purpose earmarks, based on these projections.[16]



[10]Martin, Jonathan (March 21, 2012). "State: Potential I-502 pot revenue double what supporters predict". The Seattle Times. Retrieved March 24, 2012.
[11] Jon, Walker (February 23, 2011). "Official Washington State Analysis: Marijuana Legalization Would Add Hundreds of Millions to State Coffers". Fire Dog Lake. Retrieved August 27, 2011.
[12] Holden, Dominic (June 21, 2011). "Legalize It: A Smart New Initiative Makes Washington State Ground Zero in the National Fight to End Marijuana Prohibition". The Stranger (Seattle, Washington: The Stranger (Newspaper)). Retrieved August 27, 2011.
[13] Johnson, Gene (August 10, 2012). "Wash.: Legal pot could bring in $2B over 5 years". Seattle Post-Intelligencer. Retrieved August 10, 2012.
[14] Holden, Dominic (August 10, 2012). "WA Pot Initiative Could Generate $1.9 Billion in Revenue Over Five Years". The Stranger. Retrieved August 10, 2012.
[15]"OFM Fiscal Impact Statement (I-502)" (PDF). Washington State Office of Financial Management. August 10, 2012. Retrieved August 10, 2012.
[16] "What could $582,000,000 every year do?". New Approach Washington. September, 2012. Retrieved September 26, 2012.



snyps said:
Kasz216 said:





Establish a license system for drug producers, processors, and retailers. Initial licenses shall be $250 with an annual renewal fee of $1000. Rules prohibit producers and processors from having any financial interest in retailers, much like the three-tier system for hard liquor in control states. Also make it clear that selling or distributing unlicensed drugs remains illegal, setting limits on the maximum amount one may possess. In the case of marijuana, Adults 21 years or older may possess up to "one ounce of useable marijuana", 16 ounces of marijuana-infused product in solid form, 72 ounces of marijuana-infused product in liquid form or "any combination" of all three. Also authorize Liquor Enforcement Officers to enforce the Uniform Controlled Substances Act. Previous to this Liquor Enforcement Officers could only enforce alcohol and tobacco laws.

Establish a "dedicated drug fund" for all revenue received by the liquor control board, and explicitly earmarks any surplus from this new revenue for health care (55%), drug abuse treatment and education (25%), with 1% for drug-related research at State Universities, most of the remainder going to the state general fund.

Again, for the case of marijuana. Set a per se DUI limit of "delta-9" THC levels at greater than or equal to 5 nanograms per milliliter of blood (5 ng/mL). The metabolite THC-COOH, also known as carboxy-THC" is explicitly excluded from consideration.

Since i know little about other drugs, I'll let some one else theorize about the maximum posession and dui limits of the harder drugs. But it's fair to assume a maximum possession limit of 1 gram of speed, heroin, crack, or coke. And a zero tolerance in dui.

As well, new specialized taverns will need to be created for each specific drug use.

Prices should be around $100 per gram of hard drugs. $100 per ounce of middle grade marijuana. $250 per ounce of high grade marijuana.

What do you think about that?


$250 with a $1000 renewel fee seems pretty light for retailers.  I mean shit I think my boss paid something like 2,000-3,000 just for a filing fee for a hard liquor liscense that he was later denied and didn't get the money back.

The Marijuana stuff seems fine price wise.

$100 per gram of hard drugs seems far to expensive, especially at the levels of purity the government will likely allow.

 

Doing some more research, Pure Cocaine production wise costs something like $800 tops when it comes to producing a Kilogram of Cocaine. 

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/mexicos-cartels-and-economics-cocaine

1 Kilogram = 1,000 Grams.

So we're talking 8 cents a gram of cocaine.    So while a gram is $100 now... drug dealers can go waaaaay down to match price and still make a hefty profit.   

That's before you even consider cutting... and I imagine that US legal cocaine will be cut very heavily.

It's not so bad with Meth... I forget how it is with heroin... but Cocaine?   A gram of Cocaine... is going to have to be REALLY cheap.    Which means crack will be even cheaper. 

 

At the "pure" purity...  $20 for a gram is probably more accurate.   Assuming that they regulate purity like i'd expect.... I'd think no more then $5.

 

 

As for the "Drug Taverns".  I don't really like the idea.  I mean, i feel like most people will want to use in their home, and therefore will then just buy illegally.



NobleTeam360 said:
Then who will man the empty prisons without the 17 year old drug dealers users being incarcerated? (Sarcasm)


Even more truth to push that sarcasm to the limit.