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Forums - Microsoft - Is “GPU Acceleration” Xbox One Secret Sauce?

Adinnieken on 20 September 2013
fatslob-:O said:
Adinnieken said:
fatslob-:O said:

Once again your ignorance on the topic of hardware has taken over. Dude go back to school and learn some actual coding. You realize that the word "tier" in this case stands for the feature that is a part of the api not level's of hardware support. Do you even know how PRT's/tiled resourcing works ? 

Oh and btw the update on the hardware was to give it api compatibility not to support those features, I'm surprised that you don't even know how an api works.

I'm sorry you're wrong.  There are two distinctions to DirectX.  The hardware feature level and the API support level.  This is a fact.

The hardware does not need to be at the same feature level as the API in order to support features of the API.  This is also a fact.

This is coming from AMD themselves.  That is also a fact.

The Xenos processor in the Xbox 360 was a DirectX 9_0 hardware feature level compatible processor, but it still supported DirectX 10 API features.  Not every DirectX feature requires hardware support. 

By the way.  I've coded in C++, C#, Visual Basic 6, Visual Basic Script, Java, Java Script, PERL, SQL, and HTML.  I've written from scratch software to take a server from bare metal to a fully configured and operational box.   

What the heck have you done?  Until you have something substantial to contribute to this discussion, please stop commenting!

Oh, and by the fucking way.  I was on the President's List and Dean's List of my college with a 4.0 in Computer Science, and I can prove it to the moderators if they would like.

You tell me how Sony, who was way ahead of Microsoft by all accounts, would be able to implment DirectX 11.2 when Microsoft revealed features that even AMD wasn't aware of?  Then try to explain to me why Microsoft, who had been working on DirectX 11.2 wouldn't have a GPU that fully supports the hardware feature set for DX11.2?  Albert Penello asked nearly that same question.   

GCN 1.0 GPUs do not support the DX11_1 feature set.  GCN 1.1 GPUs do.  AMD in the press release even stated, specifically that they were proud to be the only GPU manufacturer offered a fully DX11.2 compatible GPU stack in a retail product.  The nod, not to the Xbox One, but to the Bonaire GPU.  THE ONLY GCN 1.1 GPU. 

So once again, just be quiet.

You can try to insult me all you want.  It won't do any good because the fact of the matter is, the source material I've linked to multiple times to specific content comes from solid sources.  So if you want to go down this road, please do. 

@Bolded Source please ?

BTW all GCN GPU's support DX 11.1 and once again you have bo knowledge of what your talking about. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radeon_HD_7000_Series

Where's proof that the xbone's GPU based on GCN 1.1 once again show me source. I could easily say that it's based off the cape verde but I don't have any source to back it up.

Telling me to be quiet!, that's hilarious coming from the man that does not know aything about hardware. 

Please read the Beyond 3D links.  The entire thread is included at the bottom of my original comment regarding this subject.  Then, please be my guest.  Sign-up for a Beyond 3D forum account and tell them that they're ignorant. 



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fatslob-:O on 20 September 2013
Adinnieken said:
fatslob-:O said:
Adinnieken said:
fatslob-:O said:

Once again your ignorance on the topic of hardware has taken over. Dude go back to school and learn some actual coding. You realize that the word "tier" in this case stands for the feature that is a part of the api not level's of hardware support. Do you even know how PRT's/tiled resourcing works ? 

Oh and btw the update on the hardware was to give it api compatibility not to support those features, I'm surprised that you don't even know how an api works.

I'm sorry you're wrong.  There are two distinctions to DirectX.  The hardware feature level and the API support level.  This is a fact.

The hardware does not need to be at the same feature level as the API in order to support features of the API.  This is also a fact.

This is coming from AMD themselves.  That is also a fact.

The Xenos processor in the Xbox 360 was a DirectX 9_0 hardware feature level compatible processor, but it still supported DirectX 10 API features.  Not every DirectX feature requires hardware support. 

By the way.  I've coded in C++, C#, Visual Basic 6, Visual Basic Script, Java, Java Script, PERL, SQL, and HTML.  I've written from scratch software to take a server from bare metal to a fully configured and operational box.   

What the heck have you done?  Until you have something substantial to contribute to this discussion, please stop commenting!

Oh, and by the fucking way.  I was on the President's List and Dean's List of my college with a 4.0 in Computer Science, and I can prove it to the moderators if they would like.

You tell me how Sony, who was way ahead of Microsoft by all accounts, would be able to implment DirectX 11.2 when Microsoft revealed features that even AMD wasn't aware of?  Then try to explain to me why Microsoft, who had been working on DirectX 11.2 wouldn't have a GPU that fully supports the hardware feature set for DX11.2?  Albert Penello asked nearly that same question.   

GCN 1.0 GPUs do not support the DX11_1 feature set.  GCN 1.1 GPUs do.  AMD in the press release even stated, specifically that they were proud to be the only GPU manufacturer offered a fully DX11.2 compatible GPU stack in a retail product.  The nod, not to the Xbox One, but to the Bonaire GPU.  THE ONLY GCN 1.1 GPU. 

So once again, just be quiet.

You can try to insult me all you want.  It won't do any good because the fact of the matter is, the source material I've linked to multiple times to specific content comes from solid sources.  So if you want to go down this road, please do. 

@Bolded Source please ?

BTW all GCN GPU's support DX 11.1 and once again you have bo knowledge of what your talking about. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radeon_HD_7000_Series

Where's proof that the xbone's GPU based on GCN 1.1 once again show me source. I could easily say that it's based off the cape verde but I don't have any source to back it up.

Telling me to be quiet!, that's hilarious coming from the man that does not know aything about hardware. 

Please read the Beyond 3D links.  The entire thread is included at the bottom of my original comment regarding this subject.  Then, please be my guest.  Sign-up for a Beyond 3D forum account and tell them that they're ignorant. 

http://beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=64206&page=2

Not quite (that was my point when I first closed the thread, which Dave wanted to correct). DX11.2 requires Tiled Resources Tier-2 which currently only AMD supports in its current products, and DX11.2 requires a hardware feature that isn't present in all 11.1 devices (nVidia's DX11.1 cards won't be updateable).

That says nothing about the hardware in PS4 and XB1 though, which we can assume have the same required featureset but maybe don't. With PS4 explicitly stating DX11.2 compatibility, I assume it has the required features. With XB1 presently saying 11.1, there's the possibility of it not supporting this feature, though that seems improbable. grndzro says GCN has been reported as DX11.2 compatible. Ah yes, DirectX 11.2 was reported as a Windows 8.1 and XB1 exclusive update. So there we go, both consoles support DX11.2 on the hardware level. -Shifty Geezer

It's over for you, your a fraud in terms of hardware knowledge, you know nothing of the jargon they are speaking.

That's that just deal with it. I don't care what your dean says or what you have done, the fact that you are having trouble understanding technical details means your not qualified to speak about hardware. BTW you still don't know that "tier" in that case stood for enumeration which means that they are features part of the WHOLE API and not separated by hardware but by initializations and that is clearly a fault with your understanding about coding. 

Off-Topic: You still haven't answered my question about why AMD chose to make GCN in favour of keeping VLIW ? (BTW dahuman probably gets it already so he's probably ahead of you in terms of understanding technical details about hardware.) 



Adinnieken on 20 September 2013
fatslob-:O said:

http://beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=64206&page=2

Not quite (that was my point when I first closed the thread, which Dave wanted to correct). DX11.2 requires Tiled Resources Tier-2 which currently only AMD supports in its current products, and DX11.2 requires a hardware feature that isn't present in all 11.1 devices (nVidia's DX11.1 cards won't be updateable).

That says nothing about the hardware in PS4 and XB1 though, which we can assume have the same required featureset but maybe don't. With PS4 explicitly stating DX11.2 compatibility, I assume it has the required features. With XB1 presently saying 11.1, there's the possibility of it not supporting this feature, though that seems improbable. grndzro says GCN has been reported as DX11.2 compatible. Ah yes, DirectX 11.2 was reported as a Windows 8.1 and XB1 exclusive update. So there we go, both consoles support DX11.2 on the hardware level. -Shifty Geezer

It's over for you, your a fraud in terms of hardware knowledge, you know nothing of the jargon they are speaking.

That's that just deal with it. I don't care what your dean says or what you have done, the fact that you are having trouble understanding technical details means your not qualified to speak about hardware. BTW you still don't know that "tier" in that case stood for enumeration which means that they are features part of the WHOLE API and not separated by hardware but by initializations and that is clearly a fault with your understanding about coding. 

Off-Topic: You still haven't answered my question about why AMD chose to make GCN in favour of keeping VLIW ? (BTW dahuman probably gets it already so he's probably ahead of you in terms of understanding technical details about hardware.) 

You're ONLY on page 2.  Keep reading.



fatslob-:O on 20 September 2013
Adinnieken said:
fatslob-:O said:

http://beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=64206&page=2

Not quite (that was my point when I first closed the thread, which Dave wanted to correct). DX11.2 requires Tiled Resources Tier-2 which currently only AMD supports in its current products, and DX11.2 requires a hardware feature that isn't present in all 11.1 devices (nVidia's DX11.1 cards won't be updateable).

That says nothing about the hardware in PS4 and XB1 though, which we can assume have the same required featureset but maybe don't. With PS4 explicitly stating DX11.2 compatibility, I assume it has the required features. With XB1 presently saying 11.1, there's the possibility of it not supporting this feature, though that seems improbable. grndzro says GCN has been reported as DX11.2 compatible. Ah yes, DirectX 11.2 was reported as a Windows 8.1 and XB1 exclusive update. So there we go, both consoles support DX11.2 on the hardware level. -Shifty Geezer

It's over for you, your a fraud in terms of hardware knowledge, you know nothing of the jargon they are speaking.

That's that just deal with it. I don't care what your dean says or what you have done, the fact that you are having trouble understanding technical details means your not qualified to speak about hardware. BTW you still don't know that "tier" in that case stood for enumeration which means that they are features part of the WHOLE API and not separated by hardware but by initializations and that is clearly a fault with your understanding about coding. 

Off-Topic: You still haven't answered my question about why AMD chose to make GCN in favour of keeping VLIW ? (BTW dahuman probably gets it already so he's probably ahead of you in terms of understanding technical details about hardware.) 

You're ONLY on page 2.  Keep reading.

Once again nothing has being concluded from that thread and whats more is a lack of evidence caused the thread to reach no conclusion regard DX 11.2 plus you still haven't answered my basic questions regarding GCN.

Q1: Why did AMD make a switch to GCN ?

Q2: What does PRT/Tiled rendering do ?

Addition Question: What was it that AMD was attempting to strive for creating GCN ?

I know the answers to all of them but you still don't know a thing about hardware or even software in your case of claiming to be a graduate.



dahuman on 20 September 2013
fatslob-:O said:
Adinnieken said:
fatslob-:O said:
Adinnieken said:
fatslob-:O said:

Once again your ignorance on the topic of hardware has taken over. Dude go back to school and learn some actual coding. You realize that the word "tier" in this case stands for the feature that is a part of the api not level's of hardware support. Do you even know how PRT's/tiled resourcing works ? 

Oh and btw the update on the hardware was to give it api compatibility not to support those features, I'm surprised that you don't even know how an api works.

I'm sorry you're wrong.  There are two distinctions to DirectX.  The hardware feature level and the API support level.  This is a fact.

The hardware does not need to be at the same feature level as the API in order to support features of the API.  This is also a fact.

This is coming from AMD themselves.  That is also a fact.

The Xenos processor in the Xbox 360 was a DirectX 9_0 hardware feature level compatible processor, but it still supported DirectX 10 API features.  Not every DirectX feature requires hardware support. 

By the way.  I've coded in C++, C#, Visual Basic 6, Visual Basic Script, Java, Java Script, PERL, SQL, and HTML.  I've written from scratch software to take a server from bare metal to a fully configured and operational box.   

What the heck have you done?  Until you have something substantial to contribute to this discussion, please stop commenting!

Oh, and by the fucking way.  I was on the President's List and Dean's List of my college with a 4.0 in Computer Science, and I can prove it to the moderators if they would like.

You tell me how Sony, who was way ahead of Microsoft by all accounts, would be able to implment DirectX 11.2 when Microsoft revealed features that even AMD wasn't aware of?  Then try to explain to me why Microsoft, who had been working on DirectX 11.2 wouldn't have a GPU that fully supports the hardware feature set for DX11.2?  Albert Penello asked nearly that same question.   

GCN 1.0 GPUs do not support the DX11_1 feature set.  GCN 1.1 GPUs do.  AMD in the press release even stated, specifically that they were proud to be the only GPU manufacturer offered a fully DX11.2 compatible GPU stack in a retail product.  The nod, not to the Xbox One, but to the Bonaire GPU.  THE ONLY GCN 1.1 GPU. 

So once again, just be quiet.

You can try to insult me all you want.  It won't do any good because the fact of the matter is, the source material I've linked to multiple times to specific content comes from solid sources.  So if you want to go down this road, please do. 

@Bolded Source please ?

BTW all GCN GPU's support DX 11.1 and once again you have bo knowledge of what your talking about. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radeon_HD_7000_Series

Where's proof that the xbone's GPU based on GCN 1.1 once again show me source. I could easily say that it's based off the cape verde but I don't have any source to back it up.

Telling me to be quiet!, that's hilarious coming from the man that does not know aything about hardware. 

Please read the Beyond 3D links.  The entire thread is included at the bottom of my original comment regarding this subject.  Then, please be my guest.  Sign-up for a Beyond 3D forum account and tell them that they're ignorant. 

http://beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=64206&page=2

Not quite (that was my point when I first closed the thread, which Dave wanted to correct). DX11.2 requires Tiled Resources Tier-2 which currently only AMD supports in its current products, and DX11.2 requires a hardware feature that isn't present in all 11.1 devices (nVidia's DX11.1 cards won't be updateable).

That says nothing about the hardware in PS4 and XB1 though, which we can assume have the same required featureset but maybe don't. With PS4 explicitly stating DX11.2 compatibility, I assume it has the required features. With XB1 presently saying 11.1, there's the possibility of it not supporting this feature, though that seems improbable. grndzro says GCN has been reported as DX11.2 compatible. Ah yes, DirectX 11.2 was reported as a Windows 8.1 and XB1 exclusive update. So there we go, both consoles support DX11.2 on the hardware level. -Shifty Geezer

It's over for you, your a fraud in terms of hardware knowledge, you know nothing of the jargon they are speaking.

That's that just deal with it. I don't care what your dean says or what you have done, the fact that you are having trouble understanding technical details means your not qualified to speak about hardware. BTW you still don't know that "tier" in that case stood for enumeration which means that they are features part of the WHOLE API and not separated by hardware but by initializations and that is clearly a fault with your understanding about coding. 

Off-Topic: You still haven't answered my question about why AMD chose to make GCN in favour of keeping VLIW ? (BTW dahuman probably gets it already so he's probably ahead of you in terms of understanding technical details about hardware.) 

Don't drag me into this lol.

Though my 2 cents is that MS needs the PR and the performance advantage of the hardware feature set(assuming if it's actually there) wouldn't be that much(my experience tells me that it might offer up to 15% advantage in the best ideal condition when doing the same task using the feature set, but only such tasks, and doesn't mean much in the overall performance gap just by looking at the hardwares) and won't make up for the raw power difference since you can technically run VLIW hardware that can beat the shit out of the GCN type hardware running the same effects due to raw power. Raw power always matters, clever coding or not, so I don't think the discussion or argument on it is required and have been quiet on the topic since I don't lean towards either console or company. ^_^; GCN is much more efficient though, nobody can doubt that, I personally really want to see what Nvidia will have with Maxwell.



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DonFerrari on 20 September 2013
endimion said:
whoa so many insecure PS fans.... I'm starting to wonder if they did realize raw specs on paper means pretty much nothing, especially since nobody is tapping anywhere close to the max capacity of any console before several years into the gen, that raw power has never been the main selling point and that so far I have yet to see any games announced on PS4 that got me jumping up and down because it seemed new or refreshing (and I'm not talking about arcade/indi games, those needs will be largely satisfied on both consoles and don't usually need crazy horsepower)

well that might explain why they spend more time on MS forums than on Sony.... not much to talk about beside superior hardware apparently.... and a lot of time to waste to diss MS potential superiority on every other front.....

And by your signature, posts and images I don't think you would really support PS4 even if it costed just US$ 100,00 and had more than 100 AAA shipping on launch.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

DonFerrari on 20 September 2013
TheSting said:
iamdeath said:
TheSting said:
iamdeath said:
sales2099 said:
iamdeath said:
TheSting said:
 


Need? You know we don't need most of the things we indulge in. Including video games. I'll take it as a plus with my Xbox 

$100 bucks for what a microphone can do. It doesn;t add up to the value.

The PS4 touchpad operating as a mouse is better for navigation.

Read your comment. This is how closed minded you are. The very idea that the competition does something better and your favourite console does everything 100% better is the mark of a true deluded fan.

Its $100 for gaming, navigation, and friend connectivity, all streamlined and seamless. $100 for that convienence for the entire lifecycle of the product. Id say that pays for itself if I had one for 8 years.

Just because you are too indoctrinated to see outside your own bubble, doesn't mean there isn't value for others in the product.

Ps4 already has all that for $100 less............................Navigation with touchpad > voice, which Ps4 also does.

Sorry what are all these must have features x1 has again, i am still waiting.

 

just because you are too blinded to see that the x1 does nothing different, except things that customers don't need (Ala using your game consoles as a cable box pass thru, meaning you need both ), doesn't mean the competition doesn't have all the bases covered.

 

If x1 had all these must need features, customers would be flocking to it.

 

Ultimately, the customer decides, and they are speaking loudly.

 

Microsoft is guilty of focusing too much on the wrong things for x1, thus the backlash. Too much into kinect,which sacrificed a gaming power edge to Sony. They are gulity of trying to sell things people don't want. People already haev dozens of cable options there is already cable saturation. Gaming is the primary reason people buy consoles, not voice commands, which is ntohing but a gimmick.

 

Sony gives ther consumer a choice:

 

http://www.gamespot.com/tgs/ps4-voice-and-gesture-control-confirmed-6414680/

 


The Xbox has great value and the Day One Edition is sold out. Soooo I guess consumers are deciding lol. It's going to sell dude you can give up whatever crusade you're on.


Being sold out doesn;t mean much, the wii-u was too. Consumers are choosing the Ps4 value over the x1's. ...yes the customer is deciding.

Both are sold out though lol. & take your WiI-U statement and apply it to PS4. You're making it seem like one is doing awesome while the other terrible. If they can't order anymore Xbox's how are the consumers choosing PS4 more? Be real about it man. It would see more action because it's more available but I'm sure that would be the same as Xbox. 


Yet estimation for PS4 is almost double that of Xbone... and before the 180 ut was really ridiculous difference... so don't pretend MS is ofering the best equipment and that the majority want it.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Frequency on 20 September 2013

Both of you need to let it go, seriously.



Pemalite on 21 September 2013
dahuman said:

Don't drag me into this lol.

Though my 2 cents is that MS needs the PR and the performance advantage of the hardware feature set(assuming if it's actually there) wouldn't be that much(my experience tells me that it might offer up to 15% advantage in the best ideal condition when doing the same task using the feature set, but only such tasks, and doesn't mean much in the overall performance gap just by looking at the hardwares) and won't make up for the raw power difference since you can technically run VLIW hardware that can beat the shit out of the GCN type hardware running the same effects due to raw power. Raw power always matters, clever coding or not, so I don't think the discussion or argument on it is required and have been quiet on the topic since I don't lean towards either console or company. ^_^; GCN is much more efficient though, nobody can doubt that, I personally really want to see what Nvidia will have with Maxwell.


Raw power is important, but not when it's never being utilised, for example AMD stated it themselves that the reason why they shifted from VLIW5 to VLIW4 was one of utilisation.
For example, VLIW5 (Radeon 5870) had incredible amounts of raw power, this was at a time where most games were only starting to make the shift to the Direct X 11 rendering path, so VLIW5 worked well in a Direct X 9 dominated world, as PC games shifted to Direct X 11, 1 out of every 5 of units in the array ended up being idle, which is a waste of transisters.
Enter: VLIW4 (Radeon 6970), basically they cut the 5th unit out of each array, but made each unit in the array more flexible, this allowed more units to be working at any one time, thus despite having less shader pipelines more were working at the same time, hence increasing overall performance.
Of course, it still wasn't perfect, parts of the GPU were still idling, but it was better than the situation the VLIW5 GPU's were in.
Enter: GCN.

Now, in a console environment, it doesn't really matter, developers will program to the particular nuances of the architecture, however I'm glad they didn't, it's bad enough the consoles are as anemic as they are, let alone one that is based on a 4 year old design, it would have only held back PC gaming even more.




www.youtube.com/@Pemalite

TheJimbo1234 on 21 September 2013

Won't make a difference as this sort of software has been in PCs for ages and doesn't really help.