PDF said: flukus said: PDF said: flukus said: PDF said: Avinash_Tyagi said: PDF said: @avinash but you cannot prove it doesnt exist. Also I said the arguement is that your killing somthing that could of lived. If you dint interfere then it would of became a baby. We are so close at settling this. Your opinion is = to anyone opinon that is faith based. Your opinion is based on how you grew up and raised and experiences just like their was, they just had some religion incorporated in their life. When a opinion is proven it becomes fact like gravity. That is not a opinion it is fact. When somthing is proven as a fact and can not be refuted it is correct.  Except that its not alive, so you aren't killing it, since it can't survive independently at that point.   See the problem is you're trying to use faith to override what we know in science and what is legal under the constitution, and that is where the problem arises. It was going to be alive is the point.  If you plant a seed in the ground and let it grow for a couple of days then you dig it up.  It was never really a tree but you killed it all the same because you took its chance from being a tree away.  The problem is your trying to overide any person with faith who are just important as you under constitution because they recieve one vote just like you.  So no matter what you think their opinion is equal under the Law and you fail to see that. Also I do not think it is the right for a the Supreme Court to make law.  They shall only interpret not make.  So Roe v. Wade should have never been made.  Only congress has the right to make laws as it is stated in our constitution. But people that are pro choice arn't overriding people of faith, everyone agrees their allowed to carry their child full term, it's anti abortionists that are trying to override people who don't share their faith by saying they can't have an abortion. And your logic goes right back to the "every sperm is sacred song". Every sperm could have been a child, so I'm killing a million kids before going to bed every night. Umm no,  you cant have a baby without a egg.  sperm will be killed no matter what you do.  it is not a child seeing how it is only half of what is needed to become a baby.  DUH.   It also needs several months of nutrients and saftey from the mother, not that thats the main point I was making anyway. Based on your (presumably) religious beliefs you think the right to an abortion should be taken away from everyone else. Therefor you think you have the right to assert (through law) your faith on everyone else, which you obviously don't. In contrast, pro choice people force no one to do anything, which shows a case where it would be much better not to have religion involved in politics. You obviously have not read all my post or you would then really know how I stood on abortion.  I am only argueing the Rights side of it to make a point. You think that everyone should have the right to abortion killing millions of babies and forcing your beliefs on them.  You are trying to force your opinion on others just like they are.  You have that right, as do they.   This works on the death penalty as well.  If you think there should be one your then forcing tour beliefs on them and if you dont your forcing your beliefs on those who do.  Either way somone is forcing thier beliefs on another.  It is the way America works.  As long as it is majority beliefs it is ok instead of an individuals.

Explain in what way being pro choice would be forcing my opinion on other people? Something like the death penalty is a different bag. We all agree we want a society with as few murders as possible, as far as I'm aware it's not divided on religious lines and theres data to back up our arguments. Usually when religion interferes with politics (such as abortion and gay marriage) it is when there is a divide roughly along religious lines, no data (or no objective data) pr logic to back up either claim. Sometimes even against evidence as with the intelligent design "debate". Not to mention the fact that the debate isn't neccesarily a fair one, as with intelligent design. One side has to provide evidence, predictable and reproduceable results and countless studies. The other side gets to say "NAH-AH, IT WAS MAGIC". It's unreasonable to expect both sides to be taken just as seriously but apperently we do when religion interferes with politics.

PDF said: Any Law ever made is somone forcing their beliefs on you why is religion any different?

 Because, ideally we elected our representatives to do our bidding, to REPRESENT us.  Hence, we essentially chose the people who make the laws.  So our representatives have us, their constituents in mind when making the laws.  If they make a law we dont believe in, either we bitch like crazy, or we accept it cuz, hey, we put him in office, right? 

Put religion into the mix, and it cuts out the people. No longer is it "for the people" and whats, hopefully, in their best interest,  but instead is making decisions based on what a religion and its belief systems says should be done and practiced.  

 

PDF said: Any Law ever made is somone forcing their beliefs on you why is religion any different?

Because law is common sense and is based on reality,  while religious law is generaly about doing everything in their power to prove that thre's an invisible man in the sky. Law is based on actions and reactions taking place in the real world in real time, religous law is not only based in some guy's delulded mind, but is also based in the past which makes it absolete.

kergeten said: PDF said: Any Law ever made is somone forcing their beliefs on you why is religion any different? Because law is common sense and is based on reality, while religious law is generaly about doing everything in their power to prove that thre's an invisible man in the sky. Law is based on actions and reactions taking place in the real world in real time, religous law is not only based in some guy's delulded mind, but is also based in the past which makes it absolete.

 With this argument, the same could be said about common law (like laws that were made long time ago).  Personally i wouldnt use this angle to justify it.  

PDF said: @prlatino86 - Here lets take this one step at a time. You agree all poeple opinions are equal?

 Actually, im not going to lie, i dont agree everyones opinions are equal.  Now, everyone has an equal right to their own opinion, and i consider your opinion equal as long as you can defend your position with a reason.

But, you cant sit here and tell me you yourself value everyone opinions equally.  If some guy told you that the sky was blue because he farted and made it that way, you wouldnt value their opinion that much either.  If you say otherwise, then im gonna say your either full of shit or extremely gullible.  

PDF said: prlatino86 said: PDF said: Any Law ever made is somone forcing their beliefs on you why is religion any different? Because, ideally we elected our representatives to do our bidding, to REPRESENT us. Hence, we essentially chose the people who make the laws. So our representatives have us, their constituents in mind when making the laws. If they make a law we dont believe in, either we bitch like crazy, or we accept it cuz, hey, we put him in office, right? Put religion into the mix, and it cuts out the people. No longer is it "for the people" and whats, hopefully, in their best interest, but instead is making decisions based on what a religion and its belief systems says should be done and practiced.   There will always be the people that dint agree tho. They are still getting somone else belief forced apon them. I agree with you that we run on a majority rule system. I never said only religious people are allowed in politics. I only said that they shouldnt be excluded because then all the religious people who want somone to represent them dont get represented. I am not tryin to cut out people you are. That is where your confused. Never said religious only, just allow their to be religion dont exclude it.

 I dont have a problem with religious people having someone represent them. thats fine, and it does happen all the time.  hell, their political lobbies out their that are religious lobbies.  What im saying is when we start making laws with religion being the sole or even the major reason behind it, thats what i think needs to stay out of our government.  Essentially, the "because of religion" defense needs to stay out. 

The day congress passes a law with wording like "for a better christian nation" or puts reasoning behind it because its the "proper christian thing to do" or anything in those lines (by the way, im using christianity as an example, it could be islam or judaism for all i care), will be the day you see my ass start firebombing federal buildings.....

well, ok, i wont actually be firebombing federal buildings, but you get my drift, id be fuckin pissed, hahaha. 

PDF said: prlatino86 said: PDF said: @prlatino86 - Here lets take this one step at a time. You agree all poeple opinions are equal? Actually, im not going to lie, i dont agree everyones opinions are equal. Now, everyone has an equal right to their own opinion, and i consider your opinion equal as long as you can defend your position with a reason. But, you cant sit here and tell me you yourself value everyone opinions equally. If some guy told you that the sky was blue because he farted and made it that way, you wouldnt value their opinion that much either. If you say otherwise, then im gonna say your either full of shit or extremely gullible. Did you no learn the difference between opinion and Fact. I believe in this motto. I may not agree with what your saying but I will die for your right to say it.

 You mean the quote from Voltair?  i know it, and i believe it, its freedom of speech.  I said i believe everyone has an equal right to their own opinion.  Thats what Voltaire was saying there.  

What i said is i dont value peoples opinions equally.  You asked if all peoples opinions are equal.  I said i dont believe they are, because it relates on the content of that opinion. 

I would never consider an opinion of someone who cant defend their own position, who uses "because i said so" or "because thats what they say" or "i read it somewhere" to.....

someone who can sit their and have a reasoning behind their opinion, like "i feel it is morally objectionable and that allowing people to do this would degrade the moral fabric of society and blah blah blah" and put together some sort of reasoning behind their opinion and why they feel that way.  

PDF said: So you agree then that Religion has a place in politics as long as it doesnt take over? Which it wont because religion is to devicive to get everyone to agree. Be weary of a powerful Church not somone personal religion.

 no, i dont agree.  I said their out there, and thats fine with me, because what im talking about officially has no part in the politic process.  They try to persuade our representatives into voting their way (which takes a lot more then the argument"its against Christs teachings" to do, at least i hope it does).  They're out there though and thats cool, it helps represent the people that believe religion is important.  

But religion needs no part in the official process.  Like theres no "Subcommitee on Religous Sanctity" that a bill has to go through.  And thats not a discrimination thing.  Its just like i wouldnt want a private corporate entity involved in the official process either.  Yes, lobby all you want. but they better not have a say in whether bills pass or not.  

The reason is simple: Personal Agendas. Corporate Entitties only worry about things that benefit them.  Religious entities would only worry about what follows their beliefs.  Right now, we our a goverment "for the people".  inject these groups in there and it ceases to be that way (not saying that politicians dont have personal agendas, but ideally, they have us in mind) 

tmbh said: Im with Stillwell Keep religion away from politics. In fact keep it away education and schools! If you want to practice following/worshiping a belief system like that do it your own time and let others find it if they want to don't force it into schools.

I'm with you guys to. 

 

Copy and paste that, we might have a chance of a brighter future.

I think is about time we stop living in the middle age, I don't have anything against faith, that's personal.

Yuk04 said: tmbh said: Im with Stillwell Keep religion away from politics. In fact keep it away education and schools! If you want to practice following/worshiping a belief system like that do it your own time and let others find it if they want to don't force it into schools. I'm with you guys to.    Copy and paste that, we might have a chance of a brighter future. I think is about time we stop living in the middle age, I don't have anything against faith, that's personal.

agreed