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Forums - Microsoft - Penello specifies why X1vsPS4 performance difference is overstated

Captain_Tom said:
Jega said:
Captain_Tom said:
Jega said:

I don't see where microsoft is saying the xone is more powerful, all Microsoft is saying is the the PS4 is not the claimed 30% or more faster than people are saying.

In the end it does not matter if the PS4 is 2x more powerful than the xone, PS4 will not get all those sweet exclusives.

Forza, Ryse, Titan Fall and a zillion more exclusives. I love Microsoft.  :)


Good because that is how much more powerful it is...

Oh you got me there. DAMMIT! I feel really owned.

 

SARCASM! :)


I know you disagree with me (and reality), but your response did make me laugh...  :)

I don't see where I am disagreeing with reality.

Funny thing is if the PS4 is so much better why aren't there any games to prove that?



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prayformojo said:
Here is what I believe. The PS2 was a nightmare to code for and the UI was basically, nada. The Xbox, on the other hand, was easy to code for and had a dashboard, friends list, voice messaging, XBL, HDD, customized sound tracks during games etc. The PS3 was a nightmare to code for and the UI was very poor due to Sony not giving the machine enough OS ram. The Xbox 360, well, you get where I'm going.

I think the Xbone will have a better UI and it will run smoother because MS has been creating software since most of you weren't even alive. Sony's strength has never been software and I doubt it ever will. That doesn't mean PS4 won't have the best games etc, but if you're looking for quick and efficient apps, UI performance and integration across all things (smart phones, internet etc), you will want to own an Xbone.

Too bad most of us want a console to play games, not to look at the UI and how well it runs.



Please excuse my bad English.

Former gaming PC: i5-4670k@stock (for now), 16Gb RAM 1600 MHz and a GTX 1070

Current gaming PC: R5-7600, 32GB RAM 6000MT/s (CL30) and a RX 9060XT 16GB

Steam / Live / NNID : jonxiquet    Add me if you want, but I'm a single player gamer.

JEMC said:
prayformojo said:
Here is what I believe. The PS2 was a nightmare to code for and the UI was basically, nada. The Xbox, on the other hand, was easy to code for and had a dashboard, friends list, voice messaging, XBL, HDD, customized sound tracks during games etc. The PS3 was a nightmare to code for and the UI was very poor due to Sony not giving the machine enough OS ram. The Xbox 360, well, you get where I'm going.

I think the Xbone will have a better UI and it will run smoother because MS has been creating software since most of you weren't even alive. Sony's strength has never been software and I doubt it ever will. That doesn't mean PS4 won't have the best games etc, but if you're looking for quick and efficient apps, UI performance and integration across all things (smart phones, internet etc), you will want to own an Xbone.

Too bad most of us want a console to play games, not to look at the UI and how well it runs.


So do I but nothing, and I mean NOTHING is worse than a sluggish or clunky UI and OS imo.



prayformojo said:
JEMC said:
prayformojo said:
Here is what I believe. The PS2 was a nightmare to code for and the UI was basically, nada. The Xbox, on the other hand, was easy to code for and had a dashboard, friends list, voice messaging, XBL, HDD, customized sound tracks during games etc. The PS3 was a nightmare to code for and the UI was very poor due to Sony not giving the machine enough OS ram. The Xbox 360, well, you get where I'm going.

I think the Xbone will have a better UI and it will run smoother because MS has been creating software since most of you weren't even alive. Sony's strength has never been software and I doubt it ever will. That doesn't mean PS4 won't have the best games etc, but if you're looking for quick and efficient apps, UI performance and integration across all things (smart phones, internet etc), you will want to own an Xbone.

Too bad most of us want a console to play games, not to look at the UI and how well it runs.


So do I but nothing, and I mean NOTHING is worse than a sluggish or clunky UI and OS imo.

But you/we must deal with the UI for what, 20-30 min when we buy and configure the console and once it's all set, less than 2 min. if we only want to play? That's nothing compared to the hours we'll spend gaming.

I understand that for you it's important, but for a lot of us it's not a big deal. Personally I don't care, and I have a WiiU with a slow UI...



Please excuse my bad English.

Former gaming PC: i5-4670k@stock (for now), 16Gb RAM 1600 MHz and a GTX 1070

Current gaming PC: R5-7600, 32GB RAM 6000MT/s (CL30) and a RX 9060XT 16GB

Steam / Live / NNID : jonxiquet    Add me if you want, but I'm a single player gamer.

greenmedic88 said:
Lost it right here:

"• We have more memory bandwidth. 176gb/sec is peak on paper for GDDR5. Our peak on paper is 272gb/sec. (68gb/sec DDR3 + 204gb/sec on ESRAM). ESRAM can do read/write cycles simultaneously so I see this number mis-quoted."

Doesn't work that way. Even if every bit of data ran directly through the ESRAM, which it can't, due to the relatively tiny allotment, the speed of the ESRAM wouldn't be "boosted" an additional 68gb/sec by the much slower DDR3 memory.


Yep: the only way to add the speeds of two different pools of memory is putting them in parallel and doubling the width of the memory bus, it's commonly done on most motherboards, and to be able to use that feature you need to use couples of RAM modules of the SAME type, size, speed and latency (probably different speed and latency are allowed by some chipsets, but they simply would be made work by lowering the whole speed and latency to the lowest of them, as they must work synchronously, and this isn't a secondary thing, so much that many RAM manufacturers sell their modules also in couples carefully matched to get the best performace from them when used in dual channel configuration). Trying to use RAM of DIFFERENT size, type, speed and latency in parallel is just an engineering nightmare.
Or maybe they are meaning that CPU and GPU can access those two RAM separately and simultaneously, but even then, whenever they must work together, providing data or instructions each other, the unit working with the slowest memory would bottleneck the whole system.



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eSRAM bandwidth and DDR3 bandwidth can't be added for a simple reason, the datas have to go through the northbridge or the gpu memory system in order to acess eSRAM bandwidth. So the datas begin to move at 68 GB/s from the 8 GB DDR3 (assuming your engine is loaded and fully operationnal in main RAM (but that's a given))

Once they arrive in the northbridge, they need to be read at 109 GB/s at least one time by the gpu memory system,
Then the gpu can do.. his work.

THEN the datas are written back at 109 GB/s to the memory system and eventually you can read another small chunk at the same time and at the same speed, but only to the point that the eSRAM is discharged of its previous load (think communicating vessels here), and you hypothetically would not write some bigger  buffers in a larger memory than 32 MB (modern engine want to do that, it will happen all the time), wich means you have to read from the eSRAM once again to place your stuff in the DDR3, back and forth.

That's a very long way to get up to speed... The first read of the datas will always be at 68 GB/s and to access more bandwidth it will always be from a tiny 32 MB chunk and it's always a two steps process, at least.

In PS4, you read your data from the one and only big 8 GB pool at 176 GB/s from the start, then write back at 176 GB/s once processed, in a large memory without limitation of size. Straight fast and simple.



petalpusher said:
Zappykins said:
petalpusher said:
Zappykins said:

There is so much more that 7950 has better.  So it should have a higher performance.  But even with all those advantages, it just over doubles performance, even with nearly three times the CU Cores.  It should be much higher. 

oh it works with the HD 7850 vs HD 7770 too (the HD 7770 still have way higher clock). I just took the extreme example that produces a 100% increase in performance with CU running at way lower clock. In fact it works with every gpu in GCN architecture, if you scale up the CU count, it performs better not on paper but in real world performance, and on the contrary, i would add, it just continue to scale up really well if you have more BW and ROPs in conjonction, just like the PS4 have. Between 7770/7790 and 7850/7870 there s a significant gap, it's a  50% real world performance difference, sometimes even more.

So try to spin the CU advantage over frequency or inefficiency, is just ridiculous.

And lets keep in mind the PS4's GPU have 18 CU, not 16 like the HD 7850, also more TMUs (+4), and more bandwidth than a HD 7870 (145 vs 176 GB/s),  ACEs customizations,..

Just a few days ago, we were debating the funny assumption that the X1 would get a 4.8 Tflops stacked "dgpu" (that was good laugh), now we re back to hd 7770/7790 level that would magically perform better than gpus with 50% more CUs and 100% more ROPs.

Xbox extremists always deliver in hardware discussions.

I completely agree with the highlighted part, but have you read what you are saying?  You say it doesn't work and doesn't matter, but then it magically matters on the PS4.

The 7790 has nearly three times the CU's of the 7950, yet is barely twice as powerful.  So CU's don't make the significant change would would expect on the 7950.  Why does it matter on the GPU cards but not on consoles?  Isn't that what you are saying or do you mean something different.  Not trying to be hostile, just seems contradictory. 


What exactly doesn't work ?

The 7790 has 14 CU (2 more than the X1) and runs at 1000 mhz, while the 7950 has 28 CU and was running at 800 mhz when it was introduced (the latest version runs at 850 mhz on reference cards), but anyway, to me 14 vs 28 CU is two times, right ?

And it performs accordingly to that, more or less two times the performance.

The big picture of the GCN 7th gen is quite clear :

PS4 is between 7850 (16 CU) and 7870 (20 CU) with 18 CU,  the X1 is between the HD7790 (14 CU) and 7770 (10 CU) with 12 CU. The HD 7970 chip is a huge GPU that would have produced 600$ console again and this gpu was too big to make it in a single SOC, the gpu die alone is the same size than the whole X1 system (cpu/esram/gpu and every dedicted hardware silicon) and probably the PS4 SOC too.

It's an efficient architecture, proven one, that does scale VERY well and when you look at performance/watt ratio, the Pitcairns (7850/7870) always have been considered as the best setup, it's the sweet spot of this architecture in efficiency per watt (having 32 ROPs like the HD 7950/7970 is a winner, not because of 50% more CUs). So in fact it doesn't work like in Penello's FUD. The new hd 7790 is really good too on performance/watt, because it is capable of doing 2 triangle/cycle unlike the HD 7770 who was lacking a bit in perf/watt, so im not saying the X1 is not effective, just that having 18 CU is equally effective. There s no inherent loss because there s more CU, and the guy from ars technica debunks that too. That's what forums are for as well, discuss what's information and what's FUD. 

 

ps: (my english sounds like a wrecked train sometimes (most of the time) because im french :D)

Exactly.  He can claim that 50% more cores doesn't net you 50% more power, but he is ignoring the fact that the PS4 also has 50% more ROP's/TMU's/etc.  A matter of fact, the 7970 has double the cores of the 7850 and gues what?  It performs twice as well! 

Then add in the fact that the PS4 has WAY more bandwidth and hUMA, and it is easy to see how it will perform twice as well like some developers have directly suggested.  Get your heads out of the cloud people...



Alby_da_Wolf said:
greenmedic88 said:
Lost it right here:

"• We have more memory bandwidth. 176gb/sec is peak on paper for GDDR5. Our peak on paper is 272gb/sec. (68gb/sec DDR3 + 204gb/sec on ESRAM). ESRAM can do read/write cycles simultaneously so I see this number mis-quoted."

Doesn't work that way. Even if every bit of data ran directly through the ESRAM, which it can't, due to the relatively tiny allotment, the speed of the ESRAM wouldn't be "boosted" an additional 68gb/sec by the much slower DDR3 memory.


Yep: the only way to add the speeds of two different pools of memory is putting them in parallel and doubling the width of the memory bus, it's commonly done on most motherboards, and to be able to use that feature you need to use couples of RAM modules of the SAME type, size, speed and latency (probably different speed and latency are allowed by some chipsets, but they simply would be made work by lowering the whole speed and latency to the lowest of them, as they must work synchronously, and this isn't a secondary thing, so much that many RAM manufacturers sell their modules also in couples carefully matched to get the best performace from them when used in dual channel configuration). Trying to use RAM of DIFFERENT size, type, speed and latency in parallel is just an engineering nightmare.
Or maybe they are meaning that CPU and GPU can access those two RAM separately and simultaneously, but even then, whenever they must work together, providing data or instructions each other, the unit working with the slowest memory would bottleneck the whole system.


Yep again!  It is refreshing to see that some people do know what they are talking about and don't fall for MS's BS...



Albert Penello:

I was quickly corrected (both on the forum and from people at the office) for writing the wrong number.

The challenge with the NeoGAF format is that, because threads move so fast, posts disappear or get buried so people aren't reading everything. Maybe this part got lost:

I've stated - there is no possible way for one single person to know every detail about our platform. That means I need to go get the answers to the questions you guys ask sometimes. There's a lot I know first hand, and a lot I need to get updated on.

So people understand - I'm not dodging any of the follow-up. I actually stated the other night - there are a handful of people who asked some really legitimate follow-ups to understand what I posted. And I honestly said - I'm not the guy to answer at that level of detail. Out of respect for the people who are genuinely curious to learn how we derived those numbers, and to get the most technically accurate answers - the best course is to have the answers come from those engineers directly.

So we're working now on the best format to do that.

I still stand by what I stated (except for the aforementioned 204/218). In fact, some really interesting threads were going back and forth giving me even more excruciating detail behind those numbers based on the questions people asked.

I doubt it will take the format of an AMA, but I've collected a bunch of the follow-up questions. It may take a few weeks, but we'll be following-up on this for sure. 

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=81372357&postcount=632



a few weeks.. Thats pretty laughable.



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