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Forums - Gaming - Wii U VS 4BONE graphics

fordy said:
JoeTheBro said:

I've admitted that before... You're welcome?

 but everyone can agree that art on the right is a much more impressive accomplishment of getting the idea from head to work.

It's not as impressive of an accomplishment if it's done with skeletal suits and motion cameras. This is my point. This is what your analogy fails to pick up.

An individual cel shaded 2D game may have had a LOT more visual effort put into it than say, a 3D based game on a HD console...

LOL no, just no. NO no lol No NONononono. You have no idea. No. Mocap does not make a game just build itself. No lol.

Play4Fun said:

The Super Mario Galaxies are considered by many to be some of the most visually pleasing games of the 7th gen, and that comes from many people who also play PS360 games.

All during the gen, I've seen people drooling over Wind Waker's visuals on Dolphin.

Let him think what he wants.

I already mentioned the Galaxy games looking great; right here in this very thread.



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Gap will be smaller than previous gen. Now Wii U is HD, capable of 1080p60fps for the people that care, can do some of the modern effects, lighting is good and can run most of the engines.

There's still will be a difference, and games with a realism approach will show it. That's why I expect Nintendo to remain in their way of using more stylized games, such as WWHD.



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JoeTheBro said:
fordy said:
JoeTheBro said:

I've admitted that before... You're welcome?

 but everyone can agree that art on the right is a much more impressive accomplishment of getting the idea from head to work.

It's not as impressive of an accomplishment if it's done with skeletal suits and motion cameras. This is my point. This is what your analogy fails to pick up.

An individual cel shaded 2D game may have had a LOT more visual effort put into it than say, a 3D based game on a HD console...

LOL no, just no. NO no lol No NONononono. You have no idea. No. Mocap does not make a game just build itself. No lol.

Play4Fun said:

The Super Mario Galaxies are considered by many to be some of the most visually pleasing games of the 7th gen, and that comes from many people who also play PS360 games.

All during the gen, I've seen people drooling over Wind Waker's visuals on Dolphin.

Let him think what he wants.

I already mentioned the Galaxy games looking great; right here in this very thread.

Stop strawmanning. I meant hand-drawn cel art games CAN have a lot more time spent working on them. Motion capture doesn't do ALL the work like you're trying to imply that I think that way, but does it simplify the work significantly? Of course! Even you can't argue with that.



fordy said:
JoeTheBro said:

LOL no, just no. NO no lol No NONononono. You have no idea. No. Mocap does not make a game just build itself. No lol.

I already mentioned the Galaxy games looking great; right here in this very thread.

Stop strawmanning. I meant hand-drawn cel art games CAN have a lot more time spent working on them. Motion capture doesn't do ALL the work like you're trying to imply that I think that way, but does it simplify the work significantly? Of course! Even you can't argue with that.


I can argue with that, and I will. Do you know how long animating a game takes? Animating cel art games can take a few weeks or so of work depending on what they're doing. The simpler ones can be animated in a few days work. Once skeletons are rigged cartoony animation are really straight forward. Even with motion capture, no realistic game is going to get all of its animation finished that fast. Rigging the characters takes a lot longer, and animating takes longer. Heck Beyond Two Souls which is mocaping everything is still like two months of performing if I remember correctly.

Games are much more than animation though. Creating assets in modern AAA games takes so much work that usually it's outsourced. You'd never see that with cel shaded games.



JoeTheBro said:
fordy said:
JoeTheBro said:

LOL no, just no. NO no lol No NONononono. You have no idea. No. Mocap does not make a game just build itself. No lol.

I already mentioned the Galaxy games looking great; right here in this very thread.

Stop strawmanning. I meant hand-drawn cel art games CAN have a lot more time spent working on them. Motion capture doesn't do ALL the work like you're trying to imply that I think that way, but does it simplify the work significantly? Of course! Even you can't argue with that.


I can argue with that, and I will. Do you know how long animating a game takes? Animating cel art games can take a few weeks or so of work depending on what they're doing. The simpler ones can be animated in a few days work. Once skeletons are rigged cartoony animation are really straight forward. Even with motion capture, no realistic game is going to get all of its animation finished that fast. Rigging the characters takes a lot longer, and animating takes longer. Heck Beyond Two Souls which is mocaping everything is still like two months of performing if I remember correctly.

Games are much more than animation though. Creating assets in modern AAA games takes so much work that usually it's outsourced. You'd never see that with cel shaded games.


Assets are outsourced because they can be done quicker on more specialised equipment, which is what happens. They'd take more work if they were created polygon by polygon, but that is never the case anymore. Animation work is framerowked on MC and slight corrections might be made, but this is on similar grounds to touch-up photoshopping hand art.

You never wondered why CGI animations are chosen more in preference of the more traditional hand-drawn animations these days? Cmon, don't go acting like there's no correlation of time spent between the two...



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fordy said:
JoeTheBro said:

I can argue with that, and I will. Do you know how long animating a game takes? Animating cel art games can take a few weeks or so of work depending on what they're doing. The simpler ones can be animated in a few days work. Once skeletons are rigged cartoony animation are really straight forward. Even with motion capture, no realistic game is going to get all of its animation finished that fast. Rigging the characters takes a lot longer, and animating takes longer. Heck Beyond Two Souls which is mocaping everything is still like two months of performing if I remember correctly.

Games are much more than animation though. Creating assets in modern AAA games takes so much work that usually it's outsourced. You'd never see that with cel shaded games.


Assets are outsourced because they can be done quicker on more specialised equipment, which is what happens. They'd take more work if they were created polygon by polygon, but that is never the case anymore. Animation work is framerowked on MC and slight corrections might be made, but this is on similar grounds to touch-up photoshopping hand art.

You never wondered why CGI animations are chosen more in preference of the more traditional hand-drawn animations these days? Cmon, don't go acting like there's no correlation of time spent between the two...

They are outsourced because 100+ people teams don't have the time to do them and get a game finished in 2 years. What does outsourcing have to do with models being made polygon by polygon?

 

CGI animations replacing hand drawn animations are usually cartoon shaded, so wouldn't that go against your point?

Hey that actually brings up a good point. If artistic 3D content was less work to make than realistic content, why are there so many CGI TV shows with toon graphics yet zero with realistic graphics?



JoeTheBro said:
fordy said:
JoeTheBro said:

I can argue with that, and I will. Do you know how long animating a game takes? Animating cel art games can take a few weeks or so of work depending on what they're doing. The simpler ones can be animated in a few days work. Once skeletons are rigged cartoony animation are really straight forward. Even with motion capture, no realistic game is going to get all of its animation finished that fast. Rigging the characters takes a lot longer, and animating takes longer. Heck Beyond Two Souls which is mocaping everything is still like two months of performing if I remember correctly.

Games are much more than animation though. Creating assets in modern AAA games takes so much work that usually it's outsourced. You'd never see that with cel shaded games.


Assets are outsourced because they can be done quicker on more specialised equipment, which is what happens. They'd take more work if they were created polygon by polygon, but that is never the case anymore. Animation work is framerowked on MC and slight corrections might be made, but this is on similar grounds to touch-up photoshopping hand art.

You never wondered why CGI animations are chosen more in preference of the more traditional hand-drawn animations these days? Cmon, don't go acting like there's no correlation of time spent between the two...

They are outsourced because 100+ people teams don't have the time to do them and get a game finished in 2 years. What does outsourcing have to do with models being made polygon by polygon?

 

CGI animations replacing hand drawn animations are usually cartoon shaded, so wouldn't that go against your point?

Hey that actually brings up a good point. If artistic 3D content was less work to make than realistic content, why are there so many CGI TV shows with toon graphics yet zero with realistic graphics?


I don't know why you're making my argument for me, but the answer is because realistic CGI does NOT sell alone (see: Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within).

Artistic 3D content (ie content that has NO correlation to anything resembling RL) is in a different category on its own. I'm talking about hand drawn game animation in imparison to 3D REALISTIC content....



JoeTheBro said:
F0X said:
JoeTheBro said:

Those games are artistic. If when comparing graphics we factor in the flavor, then it's nothing but an opinion. Also the low resolution really hurts those games. Playing them in doplhin at 1080p makes them so much better. Beauty is shackled by hardware capability.


On the flip side, to ignore the flavor is to ignore the artistic value of video game graphics. There's a better argument in your favor beyond trying to seperate art and technology in a medium where both are extremely important: while there are some beautiful Wii games, the console can't realize most artistic visions as well as its competitors.


Think of it this way.

VS

The art on the right obviously took more raw talent to create vs the art on the left. Creating the work on the right would have taken years while the one on the left could be constructed in a day. There is nothing wrong with preferring the art on the left, I personally like what it's getting at, but everyone can agree that art on the right is a much more impressive accomplishment of getting the idea from head to work.

Artistic video games are great, beautiful, incredible, etc., but the vast majority of the time it's just less impressive that they're running on the console.


Hmm. I find games that push artistic barriers (Muramasa for sure) to be equally impressive to ones that push technology. Simple as that. And you can't convince me that Muramasa's hand-drawn and animated graphics didn't require a high level of raw talent to pull off. Manpower =/= talent.



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Urgh. People really are only reading what they want to read. I'm done talking with people comparing artistic verse realistic graphics. Already said artistic video games are great, beautiful, incredible, etc. IF ONLY YOU PEOPLE KNEW!!!



JoeTheBro said:
Urgh. People really are only reading what they want to read. I'm done talking with people comparing artistic verse realistic graphics. Already said artistic video games are great, beautiful, incredible, etc. IF ONLY YOU PEOPLE KNEW!!!


Chill, bro. I understand where you're coming from... maybe not the wording, but certianly the general idea. When showing off a system's capabilities in game form, one must have examples of games that actually put the system through its paces, not just look beautiful (which is more relevant to a different kind of technological discussion).

Now, the problem with the Wii is that its games generally didn't take advantage of whatever power it had. You may have heard this before, but Star Wars Rouge Squadron III for GameCube was probably more technically impressive than most, if not all games in the Wii library. A system objectively more powerful than GameCube.

But it's not all doom and gloom for the Wii. In a broader discussion about the best-looking games on each console, a select few of its most artistically stunning games can and will stand the test of time. And history tells me that such games tend to do a better job of it than the most realistic-looking games of its era.



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