Kasz216 said: What would be matieral and physical proof that god exists to you? Seriously, what could make you believe in god if he were standing right infront of you? Wouldn't you agree with me like I said above, that any physical proof that god could give, could in fact could be the result any number of other things? Aren't you basically asking for something you know isn't possible. Since anything physical could be made by something else, and therefore such proof would need to be not physical?  Such a thing would have to provoke a non physical expierence to make you believe.   Basically said physical proof would have to be proven to be nothing else in existance... but the result of gods work. And people arn't anywhere near smart enough to do that. We can't even explain consiousness. Honestly, in my book, until you can fully explain that, you can't really and fully explain anything.

God would have to manifest himself in front of me, answer a few questions about my being, and my life and answer them correctly.  I would ask him to describe my innermost secrets.  That to me is not beyond what you describe as God.  He should be able to do this for whomever asks of it at their request.  Not when it's convenient.  In fact, right now would be good.  This God should appear in my room as I type this, touch me on the shoulder and say.  "Hey, I'm here."  I'm still waiting even as I hit "Post"

Grey Acumen said: Because the only way for power and knowledge to have any meaning is to create with it and pass the knowledge on to those who lack it.Using his power to create life and then guide that life into understanding the world it lives in. Any decent teacher or parent can certainly understand that basic concept. Why is that so hard to comprehend? And really, if you want to compare it to lemons, fine. if you have two lemons lined up in a row, and you're sitting so that one lemon is in front of the other, and you refuse to ever move from the position you're in, you're never going to see that there are two lemons, you'll only see one. and so it isn't observable that adding 2 lemons + 2 lemons = 4 lemons.

So you admit that there could be 12 lemons?  Because this argument goes both ways.  By your strict adherance to the idea that there is one God, you are blocking out the idea that there could be 12 or none.  All I asked for was evidence that such a being exists.  I never got it, therefore, I tried what was in my power to turn my head and look around that first lemon I saw, but all I still see is one lemon.  I cannot see any concrete evidence that anymore lemons exist.  I'm supposed to trust that you added 3 invisible lemons behind this one that I can see?

The_vagabond7 said: If there is any god, it has nothing to do with us, and doesn't resemble any human image of him. Honestly when it comes down to it, weak atheism, or agnosticism seem like the only logical choices. Believing in any man made god is ridiculous for any number of reasons, but when it comes down to it you have to make an illogical assumption one way or another.

Hooray for agnosticism! The only sane choice out of all of this. lol

I have a few questions I want to ask. I'm not really trying to make a point (well I guess I sort of am). I'm just curious about the answers.

Followers of every religion absolutely believe their God is the real God and that all other religions are wrong. Why do you believe your God is the correct one? If you were born in, say, the Middle East and brought up Muslim instead of Christian, do you think you would be as confident as you are now that your religion was the correct one? If you say they are actually the same God, would you be comfortable practicing the teachings of a different religion other than Christianity? It just seems to me that most Christians are so sure about the Christian God only because it's the major western religion and/or what they were raised to believe. I would love to hear some other opinions though, as I've been wondering about this for a awhile. 

Andir said: Kasz216 said: What would be matieral and physical proof that god exists to you? Seriously, what could make you believe in god if he were standing right infront of you? Wouldn't you agree with me like I said above, that any physical proof that god could give, could in fact could be the result any number of other things? Aren't you basically asking for something you know isn't possible. Since anything physical could be made by something else, and therefore such proof would need to be not physical? Such a thing would have to provoke a non physical expierence to make you believe. Basically said physical proof would have to be proven to be nothing else in existance... but the result of gods work. And people arn't anywhere near smart enough to do that. We can't even explain consiousness. Honestly, in my book, until you can fully explain that, you can't really and fully explain anything. God would have to manifest himself in front of me, answer a few questions about my being, and my life and answer them correctly. I would ask him to describe my innermost secrets. That to me is not beyond what you describe as God. He should be able to do this for whomever asks of it at their request. Not when it's convenient. In fact, right now would be good. This God should appear in my room as I type this, touch me on the shoulder and say. "Hey, I'm here." I'm still waiting even as I hit "Post"

How would that prove to you that it was god? You think that is only possible for god. I could think of a dozen ways that could be accomplished. Not counting hallucinations.

Eh, ironically i guess you the atheist is less of a natural skeptic then me, someone who believes in God. Also, i'm not sure if god showing up infront of you and answering questions would really be physcial proof. He'd be right there but all the things that would convince you he was god and not someone who just snuck in your house would be mental.

Me, if i were you, instead of god showing up and talking to me though. I'd ask for a million dollars. It's a more profitable way for the creator of everything to cater to you personally and individually.

religion is a very sensitive subject. you can choose what you want to believe, it's fair, seeing as there is no solid evidence saying that there is a spiritual being watching over us. i don't like to say i practice a religion as there are sooooo many claiming that thye're the right one, which totally contradicts the whole point of religion. but i do strongly believe that we have a creator of some sort. but that's just me. i can't see existence just "appearing". but hey like i said, it's what i think. no arguement is going to change that. i'm sure the same applies to everybody else who has an opinion on this subject.

Andir said: God would have to manifest himself in front of me, answer a few questions about my being, and my life and answer them correctly. I would ask him to describe my innermost secrets. That to me is not beyond what you describe as God. He should be able to do this for whomever asks of it at their request. Not when it's convenient. In fact, right now would be good. This God should appear in my room as I type this, touch me on the shoulder and say. "Hey, I'm here." I'm still waiting even as I hit "Post"

your scenario has two possibile outcomes.

1) You refuse to admit God exists despite him actually coming down and doing everything you have just now said.

2) God proves beyond your ability to deny that he exists. You now no longer have any choice but to believe that he exists. You've given up your free will.

So basically, God gave you free will and will not take it away. You have the choice to beleive or not believe that he exists, but because he loves all of his children, he will respect that choice no matter how wrong it may be or how much trouble you're going to be giving yourself in the end. Of course, just because we respect the fact that you have free will doesn't mean the rest of us aren't going to do our best to point out where your logic is flawed in order to keep you from doing something that you'll end up regretting.

God isn't a Genie. He created us, and so he has no need to hop around catering to our whims. The idea that him not showing up at your beck and call as being any sign of his inexistence is downright retarded. 

 

Phendrana said: The_vagabond7 said: If there is any god, it has nothing to do with us, and doesn't resemble any human image of him. Honestly when it comes down to it, weak atheism, or agnosticism seem like the only logical choices. Believing in any man made god is ridiculous for any number of reasons, but when it comes down to it you have to make an illogical assumption one way or another. Hooray for agnosticism! The only sane choice out of all of this. lol I have a few questions I want to ask. I'm not really trying to make a point (well I guess I sort of am). I'm just curious about the answers. Followers of every religion absolutely believe their God is the real God and that all other religions are wrong. Why do you believe your God is the correct one? If you were born in, say, the Middle East and brought up Muslim instead of Christian, do you think you would be as confident as you are now that your religion was the correct one? If you say they are actually the same God, would you be comfortable practicing the teachings of a different religion other than Christianity? It just seems to me that most Christians are so sure about the Christian God only because it's the major western religion and/or what they were raised to believe. I would love to hear some other opinions though, as I've been wondering about this for a awhile.

Actually, some religions don't believe all others are wrong, and infact that some religions are just a different way of looking at their religion. (Or at least most are.)

Or at least some branches of said religions do.

Now say you are a Christian who believes this may be the case. You have religions you know are right (to you) and ones that you know arn't. For example Satanism. Now are you going to feel comfortable following one you think may be right? VS the one you are about 99% sure is right.

It's like a Rabi I once talked to. I said "Rabbi isn't it true that you believe that all good people, jewish or not go to heaven. So that as long as you try not to do bad... but know you have and feel bad about it why you will go to heaevn. Basically if you have a consience, you are fine."

"He said, yes that is true."

So I asked him "Then why are you Jewish, why do you do all this follow all these laws and rules that seem crazy to me when you get nothing out of them."

After that he said something about how he did them because he believed. He knew full well that this didn't help them in any way, but he did them instead just to show reverence to god.

Which to me was a great answer. But to me, I don't think god cares if I eat's pig or not, or wear a certain color of dyed cloth. I think a lot of that was put in religious books as public saftey annoucements. I think that Rabbi knows it too, but to him it doesn't matter.

It's like a TV show character once said that famous monk once said.

"I don't always know what the right thing to do is, my Lord, but I think the fact that I want to please you pleases you"

Eh, actually that's like the exact opposite.  I just love that story though.  That Rabbi was great.

Also, you'll never find someone who believes in god more then someone who has converted from one religion to another or one person just began to have faith for the first time. They will tell you when that exact moment hit them that they were wrong, what made them believe... etc. It's really quite an amazing site.

Personally I do worry about people who choose a religion only because it's what they grew up with. However the inner conflicts of people are things I can not see. So who can say whether or not they have the same inner struggles and the sudden strong belief/revelation.

There is no stronger ally to faith then doubt in my opinion. Without ever having doubt it seems unlikely you could have meaningful faith.

 

Alas, I must be off to bed. No more from me for 8 or so hours.

Kasz216 said: veiam said: Kasz216 said: veiam said: Kasz216 said: veiam said: Isn't the status quo set by what most people believe? Most people believe there is some sort of god, though disagree which one is the case. Therefore you in fact would have to prove it as such. There is also no proof that the existance of belief in a god didn't originate itself with consious thought. Status Quo - the existing state of affairs; specifically : the last actual and uncontested state of affairs that preceded a controversy and that is to be preserved by preliminary injunction In other words, the status quo was the time before religion was introduced. Number of believers doesn't mean anything. If I get everyone in the world to state that fire doesn't burn, would that make it the status quo and therefore true? Also, I was raised without the mention of anything relating to a god or religion (meaning there wa neither "god is great" nor "there is no god" in my house at all) until I was 8-ish. And then I remember my grandmother teaching me how to pray and my mom being pissy about it. I couldn't understand why my mother was so angry about it back then, but right now it makes perfect sense. In an environment where the person is not introduced to god he will simply not believe just because he has never been brainwashed into believing in something purely based on faith. Then where did the idea of God come from in the first place? I answered that in the following post. It has been spawned by the ignorance of humans when the brain is constructed to work with a cause and effect structure of learning. Yet you believe no one would believe in god if left on their own and no one was told of god. That's uh, quite contradictory to say the least. Since then not talking about god would not in fact create no god. But in fact every individual person would create their own god that makes the most sense to them to fill in the things they are ignorant about. In other words, you wouldn't be an atheist, you would believe in your own tailored god that best suits your ignorance. This god you would believe in whole heartidly as he would be the only one you would ever have heard of, and there would be no contradictions in your mind about how he does stuff. Based on your premise. Organized religion is needed or atleast talk of god is needed for people to not believe in god. In which case, organized religion should be quite a valuable thing to the atheist.

If you had noticed I specifically stated that just about all everyday things we encounter can be easily explained in one way or another. Only by going really deep in a specific field of study does one reach a unexplainable phenomena. That area of science is Physics, and anyone bright enough to reach the unexplained phenomena would not think that there is a god causing them, instead he'd try to find whatever causes them. Hence if no one is preached about a god or religion people would just end up not being religious.

veiam said: Kasz216 said: veiam said: Kasz216 said: veiam said: Kasz216 said: veiam said: Isn't the status quo set by what most people believe? Most people believe there is some sort of god, though disagree which one is the case. Therefore you in fact would have to prove it as such. There is also no proof that the existance of belief in a god didn't originate itself with consious thought.   Status Quo - the existing state of affairs; specifically : the last actual and uncontested state of affairs that preceded a controversy and that is to be preserved by preliminary injunction In other words, the status quo was the time before religion was introduced. Number of believers doesn't mean anything. If I get everyone in the world to state that fire doesn't burn, would that make it the status quo and therefore true? Also, I was raised without the mention of anything relating to a god or religion (meaning there wa neither "god is great" nor "there is no god" in my house at all) until I was 8-ish. And then I remember my grandmother teaching me how to pray and my mom being pissy about it. I couldn't understand why my mother was so angry about it back then, but right now it makes perfect sense. In an environment where the person is not introduced to god he will simply not believe just because he has never been brainwashed into believing in something purely based on faith.   Then where did the idea of God come from in the first place?     I answered that in the following post. It has been spawned by the ignorance of humans when the brain is constructed to work with a cause and effect structure of learning. Yet you believe no one would believe in god if left on their own and no one was told of god. That's uh, quite contradictory to say the least. Since then not talking about god would not in fact create no god. But in fact every individual person would create their own god that makes the most sense to them to fill in the things they are ignorant about. In other words, you wouldn't be an atheist, you would believe in your own tailored god that best suits your ignorance. This god you would believe in whole heartidly as he would be the only one you would ever have heard of, and there would be no contradictions in your mind about how he does stuff. Based on your premise. Organized religion is needed or atleast talk of god is needed for people to not believe in god. In which case, organized religion should be quite a valuable thing to the atheist.   If you had noticed I specifically stated that just about all everyday things we encounter can be easily explained in one way or another. Only by going really deep in a specific field of study does one reach a unexplainable phenomena. That area of science is Physics, and anyone bright enough to reach the unexplained phenomena would not think that there is a god causing them, instead he'd try to find whatever causes them. Hence if no one is preached about a god or religion people would just end up not being religious.

Ok. Explain consiousness. (Note, you won't be able to. Psychology doesn't have any real answers on the matter.)

Also it's not just physics. There is no science that is properly fleshed out.

Also, i just generally disagree with your premise. The more we learn of science, the more we learn that there is no real explainable beggining. Which means either infinite "real" time has passed before now or something happened that created everything.

After all the Big Bang created the universe... but something created the Big Bang... etc.