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Forums - General - Evidence for the existence of God

CrashMan on 10 February 2008
appolose said:
Phendrana said:
chriscox1121 said:
Have you all forgotten what the Bible prophesied that the hearts of many would wax cold in the last days. Knowledge will be a big contributor to many peoples hearts waxing cold. Alot of people's God on this website is their "intelligence", which is deceiving them and they don't even realize it. We live in a world where the Devil is the prince of it. The Bible calls him the "Deceiver" Revelations refers to him as " the one who decieved the nations" Alot of you are following in your Father's footsteps (the devil). Why was he kicked out of heaven, because he rebelled against the authority of God and wanted to put His throne above God's. " I will ascend above the most high" And you here today are reflecting the same actions by putting yourself above God. Belittling Christians because you are "above our thinking". Because God is "beneath you", and it's only for the ignorant and unlearned and weak minded. But, he said in His Word the he uses the foolish things to confound the wise and the weak to overcome the strong. He his a revealer of secrets. No amount of this world's wisdom and understanding can obtain it. But it's only through the power of His spirit. For it is written "eye has not seen nor ear has heard nor has it entered into the heart of man, unless it be revealed by the spirit of God." (true wisdom and understanding) Paul said if you want to be wise, become a fool for Christ. Please seek him while it's still day, because night cometheth when no man shall be able to work.

In Him

So intelligence and knowledge are negative things? I'm not looking down on anyone for their beliefs, but when religion starts telling me to take blind faith over critical thinking, I have a problem. If I were trying to sell you a dog, but I said it was invisible and impossible to detect it in any known way, would you buy it? That's what organized religions seem like to people who don't follow them. It's hard to convey why you don't believe in something someone else does without sounding arrogant. I'm sorry if any of this sounds like belittling to you. It's not meant to. 

Unfortunately, this is where most of the misunderstanding comes from.  The difference in faith and blind assumption. 

The Christian God does not demand that a potential convert take a blind leap into assumption.  What He does want is that the person submit themselves to Him via the revelation they already have of Him. Christian theology does dictate that, in some form, all people have a knowledge of God which they cannot deny  (an example of which would be the universal moral law, which is supported in Christian theology.  I'll give an exegesis of it if wanted). Herein lies God's problem with above-mentioned empiricism ( secular evolution-science, effectively (to distinguish from just science in general, which doesn't contradict Him)).  To rely on one's senses, one's own understanding, is to rebel against the inherent knowledge of Him, is to think that you could somehow trust yourself more than He.  Therefore, when God accuses us of a lack of faith, he is not condemning those who do not assume His existence, but those who do no trust him. 

By the way, the scienctific method, by itself, can't actually prove anything.  Need I mention The Matrix?  Taking our senses as truth is just as assumptuous as the situation presented in the above post.  Not that I'm saying science, from  a Christian perspective, is useless, as it can be used to help others remove their other objections.

 


Jesus Christ!  You are asking us to accepting Christian Doctorine as proof that we should accept christian doctrine.



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Mummelmann on 10 February 2008
CrashMan said:
Isn't the very existance of evil proof of that a God can't be 'All Good'

Something that is absolutely good can't take an action, or inaction, or create something that will result in evil. Its not possible. IF god is all knowing he knew he was creating evil when he created man, and that acceptance is as much evil as any action of man.

 Oh, you haven't heard the "Gap Theory" then? The one that explains all things geoligical, biological and phsyical. On one of the last days of Creation, demons poured unto the earth and started a war, battling for 6 billion years before God won and finished his job, allbeit with evil on the planet as a result.

Good fun for all of us, but just yet another sign that God is not all powerful or all knowing. And also; scientists are now fairly certain that earth might be more than 13 billion years of age.

I'll just wait for another Gap Theory then... 



Grey Acumen on 10 February 2008
CrashMan said:
Isn't the very existance of evil proof of that a God can't be 'All Good'

Something that is absolutely good can't take an action, or inaction, or create something that will result in evil. Its not possible. IF god is all knowing he knew he was creating evil when he created man, and that acceptance is as much evil as any action of man.

If good is the only thing there, how does it have any meaning? You can't make a good decision unless there is the possibility of making a bad decision, otherwise you're not even making a decision at all. God recognizes that it is the choice that is what makes good and evil have a value.

think abotu it this way, if someone asked you if a car was big, what would you say? Yes, no?

Put that car next to a bike, is the car big? Yes. Put it next to a house, is the car big? No.

Someone on here argued that freewill isn't possible because god was teh one who gave it to us, hence he could take it away which means that it's not really free will. he followed this by asking "can god make a mountain that he himself cannot move?" the answer is yes. God is infinite, hence he can create the mountain too big for him to move, and then become able to move it, but at the same time making it even bigger so he cant. God is not limited by the laws of physics or logic, so it becomes possible.



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CrashMan on 10 February 2008

^ That argument gets thrown around all the time. But how could god be All Good before he created anything. He alone existed and if there was no evil, how could he be good?

If I have a gun, and I give it to my friend KNOWING he is going to go kill someone, I am as morally responsible for that person's death as my friend is. How does that NOT apply to god.

The one thing god can't do is force a free willed individual to do something. It can't be done.

Also think about this. If god is all powerful, he then has the power to create another all powerful being. That being would then have the power to force god to perform an action that is evil, or imperfect, or force god not to know something, or even make god not all powerful or not exist. Regardless of whether god WOULD do that, (and how presumptuous it is of those people on here saying god COULD do things but WOULDN'T, how the hell do YOU know what god would do) it is possible and therefore proof that god can't can't be ALL Powerful, ALL Perfect, ALL Knowing, and ALL pressent (ie containing these attributes under all conditions).



I am a Gauntlet Adventurer.

I strive to improve my living conditions by hoarding gold, food, and sometimes keys and potions. I love adventure, fighting, and particularly winning - especially when there's a prize at stake. I occasionally get lost inside buildings and can't find the exit. I need food badly. What Video Game Character Are You?

Mega Man 9 Challenges: 74%

Waltz Tango Jitterbug Bust a move Headbanging
Bunny Hop Mr. Trigger Happy Double Trouble Mr. Perfect Invincible
Almost Invincible No Coffee Break Air Shoes Mega Diet Encore
Peacekeeper Conservationist Farewell To Arms Gamer's Day Daily Dose
Whomp Wiley! Truly Addicted! Truly Hardcore! Conqueror Vanquisher
Destroyer World Warrior Trusty Sidearm Pack Rat Valued Customer
Shop A Holic Last Man Standing Survivor Hard Rock Heavy Metal
Speed Metal Fantastic 9 Fully Unloaded Blue Bomber Eco Fighter
Marathon Fight Quick Draw G Quick Draw C Quick Draw S Quick Draw H
Quick Draw J Quick Draw P Quick Draw T Quick Draw M Quick Draw X
Copycon on 10 February 2008
Mummelmann said:
CrashMan said:
Isn't the very existance of evil proof of that a God can't be 'All Good'

Something that is absolutely good can't take an action, or inaction, or create something that will result in evil. Its not possible. IF god is all knowing he knew he was creating evil when he created man, and that acceptance is as much evil as any action of man.

Oh, you haven't heard the "Gap Theory" then? The one that explains all things geoligical, biological and phsyical. On one of the last days of Creation, demons poured unto the earth and started a war, battling for 6 billion years before God won and finished his job, allbeit with evil on the planet as a result.

Good fun for all of us, but just yet another sign that God is not all powerful or all knowing. And also; scientists are now fairly certain that earth might be more than 13 billion years of age.

I'll just wait for another Gap Theory then...


 

Que? 



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Beware, coward!
I hunger!
Roaaaaaaaaaar!

 

 

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Mummelmann on 10 February 2008

^

The universe, of course... My bad. 



Mummelmann on 10 February 2008
CrashMan said:
^ That argument gets thrown around all the time. But how could god be All Good before he created anything. He alone existed and if there was no evil, how could he be good?

If I have a gun, and I give it to my friend KNOWING he is going to go kill someone, I am as morally responsible for that person's death as my friend is. How does that NOT apply to god.

The one thing god can't do is force a free willed individual to do something. It can't be done.

Also think about this. If god is all powerful, he then has the power to create another all powerful being. That being would then have the power to force god to perform an action that is evil, or imperfect, or force god not to know something, or even make god not all powerful or not exist. Regardless of whether god WOULD do that, (and how presumptuous it is of those people on here saying god COULD do things but WOULDN'T, how the hell do YOU know what god would do) it is possible and therefore proof that god can't can't be ALL Powerful, ALL Perfect, ALL Knowing, and ALL pressent (ie containing these attributes under all conditions).

Realizing that takes common sense Crash, perhaps the first thing (along with rationality) that must be foregone in order to believe such things in the first place. Its perfectly logical to me, and to you, and indeed the vast majority on earth (I'm christian by default since its my state religion, I'm not a believeing or devout one though), but a well thought of, sane, rational and completely obvious concpet or idea can be lost on a mind shrouded by the haze of religion.

Its sad, but its the way of the world.



Phendrana on 10 February 2008
Andir said:
 

Let's say for instance (in an example I brought up earlier) that all things you see and hear and smell today are derived from one simple rule. Let's call this rule "gravity" for argument sake. You have these particles, and gravity. This particle is tiny. It's smaller than what we know as an atom. It's composed of one part. One part that has a given mass. Let's say that it's attracted to another particle. When it "combines" with this particle (not collide and bounce, but orbits, maybe even settles to form a heavier object) it slightly changes characteristic. If enough of these particles work together you have something on one end that looks like a grouping of matter (clumping), something that looks like energy (orbiting) and something that causes reactions form other groupings (collision, reflection... light).

If you take a million specks of sand, you can form a lot of unique and interesting things. No two would be alike, no two would do the same thing. Let's say you have other particles colliding with these groups and some break apart. Some stay intact.

Now, if these two sand particles collide and push against each other, they create what is perceived as energy... motion. This is how I see the world. Everything is created and composed of the most simple object that we have yet to see. You have the table of elements, but they are simple composed of elements derives from what I assume is our building block material. Through resilience, these elements either remain intact and resist the collision of other micronic particles or they break apart like billiard balls. Those most resilient combinations are what we see most commonly found (Iron, Oxygen, etc.) The unstable minerals are those that usually contain what we perceive as energy, but in fact, they could simply be incompatible groupings of these tiny particles bouncing off each other.

The rule governing these particles (move toward each other) is the simplest, yet most stringent rule. In order to change something in someone's life without them witnessing such a change, you'd have to change this one basic rule, and the entire universe would destroy itself because you'd upset the entire relationship structure that all these tiny particles base their structures on.

So, where did these particles come from? They've always existed, happily bouncing and colliding about. (IMHO)


Are you familiar with string theory at all? It's a lot like this, and it's (sort of) what I was talking about in my God energy post last page. It basically says at their most basic levels, every object in the universe is made up of identical vibrating strings of energy. These strings all resonate differently, which determines what type of particle it is and what type of properties it has. It's like musical waves, but with particles instead of sound pitches. Here's a link that gives a better summary if you wanted to look into it: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/resonance.html



CrashMan on 10 February 2008
Mummelmann said:
CrashMan said:
^ That argument gets thrown around all the time. But how could god be All Good before he created anything. He alone existed and if there was no evil, how could he be good?

If I have a gun, and I give it to my friend KNOWING he is going to go kill someone, I am as morally responsible for that person's death as my friend is. How does that NOT apply to god.

The one thing god can't do is force a free willed individual to do something. It can't be done.

Also think about this. If god is all powerful, he then has the power to create another all powerful being. That being would then have the power to force god to perform an action that is evil, or imperfect, or force god not to know something, or even make god not all powerful or not exist. Regardless of whether god WOULD do that, (and how presumptuous it is of those people on here saying god COULD do things but WOULDN'T, how the hell do YOU know what god would do) it is possible and therefore proof that god can't can't be ALL Powerful, ALL Perfect, ALL Knowing, and ALL pressent (ie containing these attributes under all conditions).

Realizing that takes common sense Crash, perhaps the first thing (along with rationality) that must be foregone in order to believe such things in the first place. Its perfectly logical to me, and to you, and indeed the vast majority on earth (I'm christian by default since its my state religion, I'm not a believeing or devout one though), but a well thought of, sane, rational and completely obvious concpet or idea can be lost on a mind shrouded by the haze of religion.

Its sad, but its the way of the world.


The saddest thing is that the "morally corrupt" athiests understand that, and believe so without the fear of retribution, yet the great Moral Religeous groups seem to deny that be the case, at least when it comes to god.  However, if you DO accept that premise as true, and you believe in moral absolutes, then it is therefore moral and good and HAS to apply to god.



I am a Gauntlet Adventurer.

I strive to improve my living conditions by hoarding gold, food, and sometimes keys and potions. I love adventure, fighting, and particularly winning - especially when there's a prize at stake. I occasionally get lost inside buildings and can't find the exit. I need food badly. What Video Game Character Are You?

Mega Man 9 Challenges: 74%

Waltz Tango Jitterbug Bust a move Headbanging
Bunny Hop Mr. Trigger Happy Double Trouble Mr. Perfect Invincible
Almost Invincible No Coffee Break Air Shoes Mega Diet Encore
Peacekeeper Conservationist Farewell To Arms Gamer's Day Daily Dose
Whomp Wiley! Truly Addicted! Truly Hardcore! Conqueror Vanquisher
Destroyer World Warrior Trusty Sidearm Pack Rat Valued Customer
Shop A Holic Last Man Standing Survivor Hard Rock Heavy Metal
Speed Metal Fantastic 9 Fully Unloaded Blue Bomber Eco Fighter
Marathon Fight Quick Draw G Quick Draw C Quick Draw S Quick Draw H
Quick Draw J Quick Draw P Quick Draw T Quick Draw M Quick Draw X
Phendrana on 10 February 2008

I think the problem is you can always rationalize for why something COULD exist if you really wanted to. So instead of looking at things and thinking "hey, this doesn't make sense and here's why" many religious people will try to find the most reasonable explanation that justifies their beliefs. It turns it into "hey, this doesn't make sense, but here's why it could." For example, I can say there's a monkey in my closet, I just can't find him because he's really good at hiding, can camouflage himself, and can even blink out of existence if he wanted to. If I don't acknowledge there's no way the monkey COULDN'T exist (he must be there!), then there has to be SOME explanation as to why I can't ever find him.

And to make things worse, when a reasonable explanation can't be found, they just say "God is beyond logic and reason" which is totally impossible to argue against.