You raise some fair points Madworld.

But indie games (and a lot of them exclusive) continue to release on 360 on an almost weekly basis.

There's a HUGE amount of indie & XBLA games in general available.

They just never got the attention they deserved on places like here because they did not apparently matter at that time during the console wars.

The wars are changing though.

People are backtracking on what is important or not.

There was also *alot* of crap on there, and i mean a lot of crap (XLBA). 

Who says people are backtracking. If said people didnt have a Xbox before perhaps they were getting indie games on PC or iPad before. Perhaps people have decided its time to get a new console, and indie games being available is an added dimension. People seem to forget this current generation has been going on far too long. So perhaps BOB had a PC and a console (maybe an Xbox360), and got most of their indie games on PC... they've had their console for quite a few years and are getting pretty bored with it. They see two consoles, they don't have a preference in terms of online or AAA games, but look at indies and think wow cool..

I guess what I am saying is, what was important to gamers before may not be important to them now, or may have more importance. It's a new generation and people might have different requirements from their console than they expected before. In the last 12 months I have purchased more indie games on PSN/Vita than i have this last generation. I think things are changing, and MS dropped the ball by not even considering the indie market as part of their strategy. I am sure they will hit back, but I think they are on the back foot and considering the launch window is so similar between both consoles, price/indie games is just another thing in Sony's favour.

I am really excited about the next big game... WatchDogs/Infamous/Destiny, but I am also pretty excited by Octodad...lol.

Fair enough.

Indie games are an essential factor as to which console people will buy next gen *cough*

And yes Madword & Pezus, i forgot that every sony die hard suddenly has a high end rig these days.

There's far more indie games on 360 than there is on ps3, sony may have been championing the indie scene recently, but it's not like Microsoft will have a shortage of indie games either.

But overall, it's the games on those shelves that will be the most important factor.

I'll leave it at that.

I didnt say it was the only factor... it's *ONE* of the factors. Including price, delivery time, features and power. I am not saying BOB will pick the PS4 because it has indie games alone.. very few would do that... but add some additional factors and it might change their minds.

You don't need a high end rig to play indie games..??? confused.

Yes there are many indie games on 360, but *many* of them are crap. Like some kid at school has made them. It's a bit like the apple market place to some extent, tons of crap but some gems hidden in there. Finding them on console is harder than finding them on iPad/Mac/PC. 

As i said MS might have been doing it longer, but have also in the last few years, shafted indie gamers, hiding the indie section from the menus and basically showing they really didnt give two hoots about them. For this gen they seemed to look like they really didnt care about them at all until Sony started showing alot of indie games and indie dev's started championing the PS4.

As i said, it's like the game creators statement "You are only as good as your last game". In this case, you are only as good as your last console...

MS might have been more open to begin with on the Xbox... but it wasnt necessarily the right moment, now indies are getting a big voice in the market place (kickstarter etc)... MS dropped them. Being sucessful is all about timing, in this case their timing was crap and Sony's was great. For example, I purchased a compaq ipaq handheld device many years before Apple even came onto the market... was it successful... no it was a fail, and so were all the tablets that came after it. Apple came in at the right time and cleaned up.

@ Madworld.

The high end rig reference means that all bases are covered for sony fans, you know, wether it be indie games or Titanfall (afterall, why would they claim they played Titanfall on a 360 or One when they can claim that they played it on PC)

As for the indie thing, there may be a lot of shovelware on XBLA, but by god there's been a lot of diamonds in that rough that have sold fantastically well too.

I think you are underestimating just how supportive Microsoft have been towards indies (sure, one or two came out and cried, and that's when Sony fans jumped on the subject) but for the most part many have been happy to put their games on Microsofts marketplace.

You can not please every indie developer, and Sony will find this out soon enough too

sorry guys but indie games dont sell consoles, most people dont even play indie games.
The casuals + parents buying for kids will get whichever is cheaper to play games like fifa and COD.
10 year old christmas noobs wont get an XB1 over a PS4 on boxing day unless they specifically asked for it.

Some core 360 gamers are switching to PS4 but I really cant see that many core PS3 gamers switching to XB1.
They know the drill....xbox with their timed exclusives, and the patience require for Sony to come out with must-buy exclusives.

Times have changed, and thats my point. What was relevant last gen is not necessarily relevant this gen. 

When someone is going to drop $400 or $500 in a recession they look at a range of things. I'm not saying that having indie games will make lots change their mind when their minds are already taken, but it may push a buyer to get one within launch if there are multiple things they want.

I'm not underestimating the indie stuff that MS did on XBLA at all. If you had read my post you will notice that I agreed they did push it, but their timing was wrong. Over the last few years they have actively been trying to drop indies from their platform. While Sony have done the opposite.

As i said... it's all about timing, just because you did something a few years back doesnt mean you care about it now. Many developers have looked at XNA being dropped and the lack of indie support as a big issue on Xbox360, but it's become even more a problem on XboxOne where they had no plans at all sorted. In fact MS have been slow to react... very much like "MMO updates". You seem to be ignoring this.. 

You cannot please every developer .. but any developer with any type of voice are the ones they are trying to please. If its some guy who's going to make a fart app, then of course Sony don't give a crap, but then nor will any gamer. At the moment I am not hearing any negative vibes about Sony's policies for indies, while i have heard alot about MS's. Take it or leave it, I can only go on information that is happening now and not some *possible* outcome in the future.

To be honest we have gone way off the OP's post... apologies for that :|

@ Madword.

True, we have gone off course.

Lets just kick back and see how the next 12 months develop.

But it's way too soon to write Microsoft off.

Here in Portugal Sonyland, most certainly it is. People in here say "playstation" instead of console.