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Forums - General - Mind-blow: Our choices are not pre-determined, but God knows

 

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happydolphin said:

God knows the final path.

happydolphin said:

If we truly have free-will, then there is absolutely no pre-defined pattern as to why we chose this or that path in our lives.

happydolphin said:

This makes perfect sense when you  bring it all into its cosmic picture.

I really hope you're trolling with this.

Predetermined simply means known before the event. You admit that god predetermines in 1.

Then you suggest that we have free will, which contradicts predeterminism in 2.

So no, it does not make any sense at all as it's a direct contradiction of terms.



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Mensrea said:

You being contradictory. Your saying if we had free will, then the description of God doesn't work. That's what I'm saying. You can't have your cake and eat it too, the fact of the matter is that in the Judao christian God is said to have:

1. Created the humans. Crafting the characteristics that make them intrinsically "us".

2. Knows every thing that will come to pass.

 

Based on that description, some of us are made by God simply for the purpose of failure. You can try to ramble about God being not bound by time, but you can't just throw out all logic just because "it's God lols".

That's the thing.

1. He knows all the characteristics about us, but it doesn't mean he can predict our choices. If the bible is cohesive, then it stands true that we actually have unpredictable free will, no matter how much God knows about us, he couldn't predict our actions.

2. He knows because he was there, not because he predicted it.

It's not "Just God lols", it's a set of either-ors. You can't say we have free will and say that God predicted our actions, that's pure bs. So that's the kind of thought process that needs to be used, not "it's God lols".



happydolphin said:
famousringo said:

Right, so god either isn't all knowing, didn't create the universe, or I'm a slave to some cosmic asshole who's responsible for everything wrong in the world.

I say we give god a break and admit it doesn't know everything.

He's not responsible... WE ARE. We have free will, and made all our choices ourselves. He just was there to see it happen, before it happened.

Can you blame him for making you alive? Really?

No, I don't blame god, because I don't think it knew how things would turn out. Otherwise we're basically just characters in a book that god wrote. In that case, god is a pretty terrible writer to have created a character as dull as myself. God should learn to focus more on compelling and sympathetic characters if it ever wants to go past self-publishing.

You're arguing that we have as much free will as Sherlock Holmes and Tarzan. The author just "knows" what they'll do but Tarzan is actually making all the decisions.

Why do you assign god a gender? I always thought that was silly thing for monotheism to do. Does he bang ladygods and make godbabies?



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happydolphin said:

2. He knows because he was there, not because he predicted it.


Ah, but this is an important point, because you're putting a limit on god's knowledge. You've admitted that god is ignorant what we will decide until we've made a decision. You're drawing a line between a god that sees all and a god that knows all.



"The worst part about these reviews is they are [subjective]--and their scores often depend on how drunk you got the media at a Street Fighter event."  — Mona Hamilton, Capcom Senior VP of Marketing
*Image indefinitely borrowed from BrainBoxLtd without his consent.

happydolphin said:
famousringo said:

Right, so god either isn't all knowing, didn't create the universe, or I'm a slave to some cosmic asshole who's responsible for everything wrong in the world.

I say we give god a break and admit it doesn't know everything.

He's not responsible... WE ARE. We have free will, and made all our choices ourselves. He just was there to see it happen, before it happened.

Can you blame him for making you alive? Really?

I agree. If anything God observes our actions while allowing us to make our own choices. I don't see how that would make him responsible for the wrong in the world considering it is our actions that determine where we end up in life.

As for the inital argument I'm sort of on the fence, however it was a very enlightening topic OP. It may just be beyond our own logic  to be able to understand God's omniscient perception which as stated could be merely the ability to observe time and space the way we observe everyday life, therefor seeing the path but not setting it.

Oh well, I guess we'll find out who's right when were dead.  



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happydolphin said:

That's the thing.

1. He knows all the characteristics about us, but it doesn't mean he can predict our choices. If the bible is cohesive, then it stands true that we actually have unpredictable free will, no matter how much God knows about us, he couldn't predict our actions.

2. He knows because he was there, not because he predicted it.

It's not "Just God lols", it's a set of either-ors. You can't say we have free will and say that God predicted our actions, that's pure bs. So that's the kind of thought process that needs to be used, not "it's God lols".

 

You suggested otherwise in the OP.

Anyway, it sounds like you are arguing that he is not almighty. An all-knowing, almighty, omniscient being is not supposed to have limitations of any sort. Saying that God "can't" do something is saying that he is not almighty.

That, too, suggests that the Bible is not cohesive.



IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
happydolphin said:

That's the thing.

1. He knows all the characteristics about us, but it doesn't mean he can predict our choices. If the bible is cohesive, then it stands true that we actually have unpredictable free will, no matter how much God knows about us, he couldn't predict our actions.

2. He knows because he was there, not because he predicted it.

It's not "Just God lols", it's a set of either-ors. You can't say we have free will and say that God predicted our actions, that's pure bs. So that's the kind of thought process that needs to be used, not "it's God lols".

 

You suggested otherwise in the OP.

Anyway, it sounds like you are arguing that he is not almighty. An all-knowing, almighty, omniscient being is not supposed to have limitations of any sort. Saying that God "can't" do something is saying that he is not almighty.

That, too, suggests that the Bible is not cohesive.

Actually, if i did then I failed miserably, because that was the whole secret to the revelation. His omniscience doesn't require his ability to predict our actions (since there is no determinism with free-will).

I am not arguing that he is not almighty, but simply that if he created us with free-will, then it is purely impossible for Him to control any outcome but his own (for instance, sending Jesus), that does not make him not almighty, since no matter what we do, he will always be able to surpass it. He is not able to control us, because he decided not to be able to, in order to give us free will. It was his own design.

So if I force myself to not be able to control something, does that make me not almighty?



famousringo said:
happydolphin said:

2. He knows because he was there, not because he predicted it.


Ah, but this is an important point, because you're putting a limit on god's knowledge. You've admitted that god is ignorant what we will decide until we've made a decision. You're drawing a line between a god that sees all and a god that knows all.

Read my reply to the1 above, he asked something similar, but just a little better. Actually he knows what we will decide before we made the decision, only because he was there when we made it, before we made it. Via free will, he chose not to alter it. And he even couldn't alter it, because it already happened.



happydolphin said:

If we truly have free-will, then there is absolutely no pre-defined pattern as to why we chose this or that path in our lives. Your mind will be blown, but God's omniscience does not require logic: He is omniscient.


And that is where your argument breaks.

In other words you're saying: I dont know why this happens, therefore i pretend this just needs to happen regardlless. Its not different than saying: There is no logic in pigs flying... yet it doesnt require logic, its fantasy.

It most definitly doesnt make it real though.



Nem said:
happydolphin said:

If we truly have free-will, then there is absolutely no pre-defined pattern as to why we chose this or that path in our lives. Your mind will be blown, but God's omniscience does not require logic: He is omniscient.


And that is where your argument breaks.

In other words you're saying: I dont know why this happens, therefore i pretend this just needs to happen regardlless. Its not different than saying: There is no logic in pigs flying... yet it doesnt require logic, its fantasy.

It most definitly doesnt make it real though.

Read the rest of the thread, I'm not denying conceptual logic, I'm defying pre-supposed logic. Read it as "God's omniscience does not follow regular logic." There is, I believe, in every theology, a trap. The trap here is to say that if God is omniscient, then he can predict your actions, which is simply logically impossible with free will.