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Forums - Sony Discussion - Naughty Dog: Ellie’s Popularity in The Last of Us “Says a lot About Whether Games can Sell With a Female Protagonist” *spoilers*

S.T.A.G.E. on 06 August 2013
the-pi-guy said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:

While noted, the ending really was leading to a second part as in the end of a season. They do the same thing on most tv shows now. They leave you without an answer to most of your questions but at least an end to the main villain at the conclusion of the first season and then leave a statement to tease the next season. 

The ending was incomplete but with good purpose. Expect another game in the next two years.

If you think about it the duration of The Last of Us was equivalent to a 15-17 episode season. 

While I agree with you about a lot of that, I just don't think it was set up as set in stone as you think it was.  Yes there's a very strong possiblity they'll come back to it, but I don't think it's necessary.  It would be both amazing and shattering to do so.  Amazing because I legitimately love these characters, but it would shatter the experience that the ending was.  From the sounds of it even Naughty Dog isn't sure what they're going to do next.  Either way I can pretty much guarantee a sequel in the next 3 years, most likely 2.  Just not so sure if it'll be with Joel and Ellie.  I kinda hope it will though.  

Some stuff about a sequel from Neil Druckmann.
http://news.softpedia.com/news/The-Last-of-Us-Sequel-Could-Still-Focus-on-Joel-and-Ellie-Story-364089.shtml

The domains for episode 2 and 3 have already been secured. The way part one went it doesn't look like Joel will make it out of the second game.
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/406553/the-last-of-us-2-and-3-domains-registered-by-sony/



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ShadowSoldier on 06 August 2013

I think a large part of it came down to how much strength Ellie herself showed throughout the journey. She didn't bitch or moan...she was a tough cookie



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wilco on 06 August 2013
the-pi-guy said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
wilco said:

Thats not really the point I'm making...All I am saying is that TLOU's success does not prove that female protagonists sell. Ellie is not the main character and ND even stated that she is not playable. If the fact that she is playable was a selling point then they would have put that in the marketing ahead of time.

This is not to say that gamers won't buy a game with a female protagonist, just that TLOU is not a great example. At the end of the day the Last of Us is still the same Grizzled Old Man/Innocent little girl trope we've seen before.

To answer your original question. I do not see Ellie being a lead character. I loved TLOU and I loved the character of Ellie but she only works in the context of the Joel story. In her current state shes just a tool and not a lead character, maybe her character could mature and become a viable lead in the future but the problem with that is TLOU does NOT need a sequel. This is one case where a sequel really can ruin the original.

How many games are doing what the Last of Us have done in the way in which it was done?
There are two main characters in the game and one goes missing for quite a while but a certain someone has to learn to survive on her own for quite a bit in the game to the point to where you forget about Joel. Joels role in the game is to keep her safe but the game begs for you to question...how long can he save her before he kicks the bucket? The way he protects the girl from using weapons until he realizes shes a good shot and shes a wild striker at that. When she becomes a woman, shes going to be a hell cat after how joel raised her. Instead of being a brat he's turning her into a survivalist, showing her hot to shoot, create weapons, make food, etc. The list goes on and on. Its obvious shes being prepped to be a lead character. She doesnt need to be now.

Ellie as a character 1/4 of the way through kills on her own. She needs Joel at this point for back up and emotional father issues, but how long will Joel survive? This guy neary died completely and shes kept him alive just long enough. This girl is going to become something special, just watch. Yes, 

As for the sequel, if you dont believe TLOU doesn't need a sequel you must've forgotten the ending was rather anti-climatic and if you've ever watched a series on HBO or any other channel they seem to have learned the lesson of how to keep the viewer hooked. They never finished the story and never found a group of people who could make an anti-virus from her blood without killing her. There is still some way to go.. Her purpose has not been met. Shes has more story and a far bigger purpose than you are willing to admit.

A lot of people loved the ending because it was ambiguous.  If they decide not to do another story with Joel and/or Ellie, I'm fine with that and a lot of people are actually asking for that.  For some people the best part of the ending was that it was ambiguous.  They didn't give you all the answers, it was something you had to piece together, something that you had to build on yourself.  

Many people seem to dislike the ending because it felt incomplete to them, but I think that it was one of the strong suits of the story.  It wasn't just "I'm done with this game now, no more."  It put me in a place where during the credits, I started to think about it.  I've never thought about a story after it was finished before, either because they never impacted me or because they were already explained.  

Yup, the ending was absolutely perfect just the way it is. I was actually skeptical of TLOU because I had played The Walking Dead Telltale Game and I really enjoyed that. TLOU looked like more of the same but it actually suprised me quite a bit. As much as I enjoyed TWD, that game was very emotionally manipulative. TLOU could have easily gone the same route but in the end they went for something way more chilling and unexpected. The Ellie character is great but her becoming a lead in a sequel would ruin the original for me.

If TLOU proved anything it proved that its possible to do an ambiguous ending that is still satisfying. An example of a really bad ambiguos ending would be the Sopranos series finale, that was just lazy. TLOU on the other hand has an ambigous ending that works perfectly.



RenCutypoison on 06 August 2013
S.T.A.G.E. said:
They built up Ellie to be a possible lead character. Male gamers can respect her rise to fame, rather than just a female protagonist being thrown at us. Takes us back to Final Fantasy XIII. Hope was the character who was built up to become something in the storyline but they gave all franchise to lightening who wasnt a strong protagonist. Hope= Ellie in this instance. The character you werent so sure could stand on their own becomes strong themselves. She should eventually be able to handle herself for good by the next game.

Nope, Hope is hated by the fanbase. Not comparable.



theprof00 on 06 August 2013
MohammadBadir said:
....didn't Samus already prove this?

Actually I'd say it proved the opposite. In games where the persona behind the mask was known by the majority beforehand, the sales did not do well. Similarly, even in the very first Metroid on NES, the fact that the main character is a chick was a huge reveal at the end. It was very surprising. Sure you might say that at this point, everyone knows Samus is a woman, but that's not necessarily true. If we're going to consider sales as a metric of how well a game can sell with a female protagonist, we have to remember that there are still a lot of new gamers out there who pick games based on the boxart.



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S.T.A.G.E. on 06 August 2013
RenCutypoison said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
They built up Ellie to be a possible lead character. Male gamers can respect her rise to fame, rather than just a female protagonist being thrown at us. Takes us back to Final Fantasy XIII. Hope was the character who was built up to become something in the storyline but they gave all franchise to lightening who wasnt a strong protagonist. Hope= Ellie in this instance. The character you werent so sure could stand on their own becomes strong themselves. She should eventually be able to handle herself for good by the next game.

Nope, Hope is hated by the fanbase. Not comparable.


They are all hated by the fanbase. Final Fantasy 13 is the first Final Fantasy in years where people have had backlash towards the whole cast, to the point where the games sales reflected the audiences lack of amusement in sequels. Based on character development in any book, technically it is Hope who becomes to leader if not eventually the most powerful as he learns to mature. Its not about whether I like him or not. If you paid attention to the first game, he's the only character with true character development throughout the duration of the game. In the beginning of the game he's just a child with a boomerang, but the end of the game he has all these powers and definitely becomes a mage-like character that people depend upon.



S.T.A.G.E. on 06 August 2013
the-pi-guy said:
wilco said:

Yup, the ending was absolutely perfect just the way it is. I was actually skeptical of TLOU because I had played The Walking Dead Telltale Game and I really enjoyed that. TLOU looked like more of the same but it actually suprised me quite a bit. As much as I enjoyed TWD, that game was very emotionally manipulative. TLOU could have easily gone the same route but in the end they went for something way more chilling and unexpected. The Ellie character is great but her becoming a lead in a sequel would ruin the original for me.

If TLOU proved anything it proved that its possible to do an ambiguous ending that is still satisfying. An example of a really bad ambiguos ending would be the Sopranos series finale, that was just lazy. TLOU on the other hand has an ambigous ending that works perfectly.

I know a few people said that's what they liked about the ending, though at the same time some people didn't even for the same reasons.  I'm fine either way, though.  If the sequel does have Joel and Ellie, and someone doesn't like that, just pretend it doesn't exist.  Then they'd get the ambiguous ending and everyone else would get the "completed" ending they wanted.  


I hate anticlimactic endings. Its the exact reason psychologically most show directors have people by the balls when it comes to watching episodes. Instead of sating your hunger for a beginning to end episode (or even season) they prod and tease with great storytelling, but one that baits and switches on you on the risk of another season.



the2real4mafol on 06 August 2013

I don't understand the doubt Tomb Raider has sold well and that franchise has been around for 17 years now. I do wish there were more female protagonists in games though



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S.T.A.G.E. on 06 August 2013
Miguel_Zorro said:
MohammadBadir said:


...but Metroid came out 10 years before tomb raider

At the time I was playing the first Metroid, I didn't know Samus was female.

Neither did I. When I found out she was female, I was like "WTF?".



RenCutypoison on 06 August 2013
S.T.A.G.E. said:
RenCutypoison said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
They built up Ellie to be a possible lead character. Male gamers can respect her rise to fame, rather than just a female protagonist being thrown at us. Takes us back to Final Fantasy XIII. Hope was the character who was built up to become something in the storyline but they gave all franchise to lightening who wasnt a strong protagonist. Hope= Ellie in this instance. The character you werent so sure could stand on their own becomes strong themselves. She should eventually be able to handle herself for good by the next game.

Nope, Hope is hated by the fanbase. Not comparable.


They are all hated by the fanbase. Final Fantasy 13 is the first Final Fantasy in years where people have had backlash towards the whole cast, to the point where the games sales reflected the audiences lack of amusement in sequels. Based on character development in any book, technically it is Hope who becomes to leader if not eventually the most powerful as he learns to mature. Its not about whether I like him or not. If you paid attention to the first game, he's the only character with true character development throughout the duration of the game. In the beginning of the game he's just a child with a boomerang, but the end of the game he has all these powers and definitely becomes a mage-like character that people depend upon.

I meant hated by FFXIII's fanbase.

And no, he is not the only one.

Lightning becomes a human being, forgive and learns to like her sister's boyfriend. Snow stop being a child and grow up. Vanille learns how to stand on her feet without Fang. Fang stop feeling stupiditly culprit. And I don't remember sazh developpement. But he is funny at least.