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Forums - General - Argument from nonbelief

 

Do you agree with it?

Yes 17 34.00%
 
No 33 66.00%
 
Total:50
happydolphin said:

1. The moment you refuse to recognize love for who and what it is, as described by its character (Jesus), you missed it. Love has many shapes in this world, but only one is God.

2. Exactly, more precisely Jesus. In the post you replied to, I gave instances of how God witnesses to the people on earth. The bible is absolute on the fact that no one will be without excuse or reason. It will be a voluntary choice to either choose him, or not choose him. I'm not sure how that works, but that's what it says, and if God truly is real, that's the only way it can make sense.


Let's talk about the people who do not know what God is. Do they have a fair and reasonable opportunity to know that love is God? How?

And don't just say, "Well the Bible says they do. I don't know how, but they do."

Think up your own answer.



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Jay520 said:
By saying that God is a conscience, inner voice, or whatever, you must also assert that people don't have the ability to reject God, since no one can stop the voices in their head. This is flawed because the Bible says you have the Free Will ability to reject God, so your interpretation is wrong, or the idea of God is contradictory.

I didn't say that "God" is a conscience. I suggested that, for all you know, a person's relationship with this god manifests as a conscience - that is, the idea that the "personal relationship" is why you have a conscience. Also, do you doubt that there are people out there who have rejected their conscience, who now lack a conscience as demonstrated by the acts they have perpetrated? I'm talking of the mass murderers, etc.

It is easy enough, in other words, to come up with a plausible explanation. That doesn't make it right, but it invalidates your argument.

You might not have noticed, but I haven't once capitalised "God" except when in quotes. There's good reason for this. Think about it.



Jay520 said:
happydolphin said:

1. The moment you refuse to recognize love for who and what it is, as described by its character (Jesus), you missed it. Love has many shapes in this world, but only one is God.

2. Exactly, more precisely Jesus. In the post you replied to, I gave instances of how God witnesses to the people on earth. The bible is absolute on the fact that no one will be without excuse or reason. It will be a voluntary choice to either choose him, or not choose him. I'm not sure how that works, but that's what it says, and if God truly is real, that's the only way it can make sense.


Let's talk about the people who do not know what God is. Do they have a fair and reasonable opportunity to know that love is God? How?

And don't just say, "Well the Bible says they do. I don't know how, but they do."

Think up your own answer.

I appreciate you wanting me to give my own answer, but the truth is I fall short. Luckily the bible has answers that I've learned from. But I'll indulge:

I know for a fact that I have been healed of a skin disease when I was younger. Whether I believed in God or not, whether I was raised to believe him or not, something inside me cried out when I was in the worst of pain, and this force came to help me. I now recognize that force as God, but as a child it was almost instinctive to cry out to a higher power (I was helpless and medicine and mum were not helping), and I got a response.

I also know of people of muslim origin who have had very vivid dreams regarding salvation, one of whom is my very close friend. I have heard that people in the middle-east where christianity is heavily persecuted also see similar dreams.

God witnesses thanks to his own creation. I am personally a witness of that. Whenever I see or enjoy nature, I recognize God's fingerprints. You may say it's due to my upbringing, but to me it speaks louder than words. When I smelled the sweet smell of grass today, I felt like God had taste (this isn't a joke).

And then, lastly, there is the story of Jesus itself, which few have not heard. But to those who haven't, my belief is that though circumstance may never have allowed them to witness it, I truly believe that if God does exist, he is truly just and will find a way in for them. But ultimately the way to heaven is narrow, and the way to perdition is wide (that's from the bible), so even with them, only a small portion will make it through.



Aielyn said:

1. I didn't say that "God" is a conscience. I suggested that, for all you know, a person's relationship with this god manifests as a conscience - that is, the idea that the "personal relationship" is why you have a conscience.

2. Also, do you doubt that there are people out there who have rejected their conscience, who now lack a conscience as demonstrated by the acts they have perpetrated? I'm talking of the mass murderers, etc.

It is easy enough, in other words, to come up with a plausible explanation. That doesn't make it right, but it invalidates your argument.

You might not have noticed, but I haven't once capitalised "God" except when in quotes. There's good reason for this. Think about it.


1. Same deal. Just change "find God" to "find a relationship with God". 

2. Many people who do lack a conscience do so because of biological/psychological factors out of their control. Many are born with verified psychological disorders. This would mean that some people cannot find God due to factors out of their control, which goes back to the point that certain people don't have fair and reasonable opportunities to have a relationship God.



happydolphin said:

I appreciate you wanting me to give my own answer, but the truth is I fall short. Luckily the bible has answers that I've learned from. But I'll indulge:

I know for a fact that I have been healed of a skin disease when I was younger. Whether I believed in God or not, whether I was raised to believe him or not, something inside me cried out when I was in the worst of pain, and this force came to help me. I now recognize that force as God, but as a child it was almost instinctive to cry out to a higher power (I was helpless and medicine and mum were not helping), and I got a response.

I also know of people of muslim origin who have had very vivid dreams regarding salvation, one of whom is my very close friend. I have heard that people in the middle-east where christianity is heavily persecuted also see similar dreams.

God witnesses thanks to his own creation. I am personally a witness of that. Whenever I see or enjoy nature, I recognize God's fingerprints. You may say it's due to my upbringing, but to me it speaks louder than words. When I smelled the sweet smell of grass today, I felt like God had taste (this isn't a joke).

And then, lastly, there is the story of Jesus itself, which few have not heard. But to those who haven't, my belief is that though circumstance may never have allowed them to witness it, I truly believe that if God does exist, he is truly just and will find a way in for them. But ultimately the way to heaven is narrow, and the way to perdition is wide (that's from the bible), so even with them, only a small portion will make it through.


So your answer is "God will find a way". Okay then.



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Aielyn said:

Ah, well then, your comparison didn't make sense. Ice Giants weren't gods, and Jesus never promised to destroy the "Christian God". There is nothing about Ice Giants, other than the presumption of non-existence, to relate them to the "Christian God".

Oh, by the way, Ice Giants aren't made out of ice. Another name for them is "Frost Giants".

And can I point out that Adam was made from dirt? Why is being made from dirt any different from being made from ice?

It was purely a comparison. No need to get technical. You over-thought my post.



Jay520 said:

You say choice is the reason there is nonresistant nonbelief. But nonresistant nonbelief does not describe people who choose not to believe in God. Nonresistant nonbelief describes people who do not believe in God, not by fault of their own. This describes people who have tried to believe in God, but could not do so. These people never even had a chance to have a loving relationship with God even when they tried.

An omnipotent God who genuinely wanted to have a relationship with everyone would have given everyone reasonable and fair means to find him. And by reasonable and fair, I don't mean things like blind faith, following your culture's religion, or merely guessing that he is there; since this means every individual's chance for finding God is a guessing game and/or is based on chance. A perfectly loving and all-powerful God would not base his discovery and guesses and chance. 

"Nonresistant nonbelief describes people who do not believe in God, not by fault of their own."

I agree with this as well; I went over that variation in my last post, in the last two sentences of the last paragraph.

"This describes people who have tried to believe in God, but could not do so. These people never even had a chance to have a loving relationship with God even when they tried."

However, this at first confused me, and suggests a type of people other than what I had initially thought you'd meant; so they've tried to believe in him in earlier attempts but eventually had a falling out or couldn't connect, yet they never had a chance to form a relationship with him even when they tried? Or are you specifying two different types of people? Because if they have tried to believe in God, yet couldn't, that still means they had the chance. In fact, as long as they're still living they still have the 'chance', so to speak. Is it their fault if they choose not to try again? Yes, partially, it is. It's their fault because they are still choosing whether or not they want to believe in him or not, and in order to live, you don't have to. You really, really don't. I'm aware of plenty of non-believers who've lived great lives, lived as good-natured people, and didn't die because of a drug overdose or suicide. Is it their fault that they lived as good-natured people? Yes, partially, it is, because they still chose whether or not they wanted to maintain their good-naturedness. They always had the chance to resort to a destructive attitude, but they chose not to. Probably because they just couldn't find it within themselves to commit to such a persona.

For people who have tried to believe in God, yet couldn't find it within themselves to commit themselves to such an uncertain entity, it's probably because they either see no benefit or never had an experience that convinced them of his existence in both physical and emotional realms. Bibilically, neither of these are really supposed to serve as the reason, however. The reason should be (paraphrased from a consistent, basic sentiment emphasized throughout the Bible [and very heavily in the Book of Job]) 'because God believes you should, and everything he believes is right and true'. It sounds pretty stupid and illogical at face-value, but hey, what would we know, right? He technically created the whole friken universe, after all. As a result, our desires and beliefs, in turn, are practically irrelevant in the face of his own.

"An omnipotent God who genuinely wanted to have a relationship with everyone would have given everyone reasonable and fair means to find him. And by reasonable and fair, I don't mean things like blind faith, following your culture's religion, or merely guessing that he is there; since this means every individual's chance for finding God is a guessing game and/or is based on chance. A perfectly loving and all-powerful God would not base his discovery and guesses and chance."

According to the Apostle Paul, every individual's chance for 'finding' God isn't based on guesses and chance; it's based on faith.

You categorized "blind faith" with the opposite of being reasonable and fair; however, that technically means "reasonable and fair" in your definition is an equal distribution of evidence hinting that he exists. The thing is, he doesn't want to do that. He simply doesn't. Because if he did, we really would not be having this discussion right now. And biblically, it's wrong to 'test' God. And as I mentioned earlier, the raw reason people are given to believe in him is that 'God believes they should, and everything he believes is right and true'.

Thus, people are supposed to "walk by faith and not by sight", I guess, because faith is stronger in that sense than sight -- if everyone was suddenly convinced of God's existence because he dropped down from the sky and told them "I exist" (this is an intentional exaggeration) then of course they'd believe in him. The possibility for their relationship to develop from scratch and thus be cemented as unbreakable and true is then scrambled. As seen in Exodus, for example -- even when Moses freed the Israeli people and were miraculously guided and saved, time and time again, by God, with their very own eyes, they still eventually fell out of their faith. Why? Because of time. Something that faith, by its very nature, is designed to withstand. It's a story directly from the Bible so using it as supporting evidence is a little circular, but personally it applies to real life just as easily; I myself am an example, as are millions of others out there dealing with addiction issues or problems with breaking bad habits, for instance. Sometimes, not even visual displays or even fear can make people change. And how could a perfectly loving God who embraces the essence of relationship risk the chance of irreversibly forming an imperfect one -- and, as a result, risking another Fall of Man?



DyranLK said:

1. I agree with this as well; I went over that variation in my last post, in the last two sentences of the last paragraph.

2. However, this at first confused me, and suggests a type of people other than what I had initially thought you'd meant; so they've tried to believe in him in earlier attempts but eventually had a falling out or couldn't connect, yet they never had a chance to form a relationship with him even when they tried? Or are you specifying two different types of people? Because if they have tried to believe in God, yet couldn't, that still means they had the chance. In fact, as long as they're still living they still have the 'chance', so to speak. Is it their fault if they choose not to try again? Yes, partially, it is. It's their fault because they are still choosing whether or not they want to believe in him or not, and in order to live, you don't have to. You really, really don't. I'm aware of plenty of non-believers who've lived great lives, lived as good-natured people, and didn't die because of a drug overdose or suicide. Is it their fault that they lived as good-natured people? Yes, partially, it is, because they still chose whether or not they wanted to maintain their good-naturedness. They always had the chance to resort to a destructive attitude, but they chose not to. Probably because they just couldn't find it within themselves to commit to such a persona.

3. For people who have tried to believe in God, yet couldn't find it within themselves to commit themselves to such an uncertain entity, it's probably because they either see no benefit or never had an experience that convinced them of his existence in both physical and emotional realms. Bibilically, neither of these are really supposed to serve as the reason, however. The reason should be (paraphrased from a consistent, basic sentiment emphasized throughout the Bible [and very heavily in the Book of Job]) 'because God believes you should, and everything he believes is right and true'. It sounds pretty stupid and illogical at face-value, but hey, what would we know, right? He technically created the whole friken universe, after all. As a result, our desires and beliefs, in turn, are practically irrelevant in the face of his own.

4. According to the Apostle Paul, every individual's chance for 'finding' God isn't based on guesses and chance; it's based on faith. You categorized "blind faith" with the opposite of being reasonable and fair; however, that technically means "reasonable and fair" in your definition is an equal distribution of evidence hinting that he exists. The thing is, he doesn't want to do that. He simply doesn't. Because if he did, we really would not be having this discussion right now. And biblically, it's wrong to 'test' God.

5. And as I mentioned earlier, the raw reason people are given to believe in him is that 'God believes they should, and everything he believes is right and true'.

6. Thus, people are supposed to "walk by faith and not by sight", I guess, because faith is stronger in that sense than sight -- if everyone was suddenly convinced of God's existence because he dropped down from the sky and told them "I exist" (this is an intentional exaggeration) then of course they'd believe in him. The possibility for their relationship to develop from scratch and thus be cemented as unbreakable and true is then scrambled. As seen in Exodus, for example -- even when Moses freed the Israeli people and were miraculously guided and saved, time and time again, by God, with their very own eyes, they still eventually fell out of their faith. Why? Because of time. Something that faith, by its very nature, is designed to withstand. It's a story directly from the Bible so using it as supporting evidence is a little circular, but personally it applies to real life just as easily; I myself am an example, as are millions of others out there dealing with addiction issues or problems with breaking bad habits, for instance. Sometimes, not even visual displays or even fear can make people change. And how could a perfectly loving God who embraces the essence of relationship risk the chance of irreversibly forming an imperfect one -- and, as a result, risking another Fall of Man?

1. Okay, referring to your last two sentences: That's the problem. Millions of people are destined to never find God, not because of their own fault, but because other people neglected to inform them about God. God knows this with his omniscience and can change this with his omnipotence. And by "change this", I don't mean force these people to follow Him, but at least offer them a fair opportunity to find Him. Instead, He let's their fate be determined be factors outside of their control. He doesn't give certain individuals fair opportunity to form a loving relationship with him. Which means He is not perfectly loving. 

2 & 3: Forget I ever said anything about "people who tried to believe in God, but couldn't". While I believe these people do exist and their lack of belief in God is not their own fault, a better argument can be made for people who haven't even been introduced to God.

4. Faith = guesses and chance. Every religion says you should have faith in their religion. So for a person to miraculously follow the correct religion, they would have to either be born into the correct culture (chance), or get lucky and randomly choose the correct religion (guesses). And for those born in a culture with no religion, they pretty much have no chance for finding God. These people do not have fair and reasonable opportunities to find God. A loving God would give everyone a fair and reasonable opportunity to find him, but that is not the case.

5. I'm not talking about reasons to follow God. Sure you could say it's right to follow God (according to God), but that's not what I'm arguiing. I'm arguing that some people do not have fair and reasonable opportunity to do so.

6. You're saying you need faith to follow God. I've pointed out why this does not portary a loving God in point 4.



SnowPrince said:
Faith can't be explained with science and logic as far as i'm aware.. This world has to be ruled by a God, nothing comes haphazardly.


It 'has to be"? You mean your brain feels the need to create causility connections. What makes you think that we can fathom the reasons for existance? Is it because you dont have an answer that you feel the need to buy the first one fed to you? Can you free yourself from the vices of thought and stop trying to take the easiest way out?

Have you pondered that the fact that there is no answer IS the answer.



Kyuu said:

I'm aware of that. no offense to anyone but I believe this is a dangerous logic and a reason behind some of the social corruption in the Christian world. I could live my entire life sinning passionately until I'm over 70, that's when I turn my face to god where he forgives me of all unrighteousness.. meanwhile a great man who didn't have his chance to confess gets burned in hell for a while.. there has to be more to it or else I can't respect that..

Love and justice don't perfectly correspond with each other, therefore I believe the idea that god is blindly-loving, has to be false. Such god isn't worthy of worship in my opinion. The God I believe in is justice first and foremost, not love. Justice has a fixed definition whereas love is contextual.

What god would that be?