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Forums - General Discussion - Graphics Capabilities: Xbox 360 vs. PS3 - A tale of the tape

Legend11 said:
Blue3 said:
They are very similar but theres one huge differance, Cell. It can do what 360 cant and this is why PS3 is said to be more "powerfull". Problem is most developers have no clue how to push the Cell. (no worries some do) You want PS3 superiority, see Lair or Uncharted. Lair does what Gears did but with environments 20 times bigger. and um a xbot site is not a good place to find out whats better.

With a computer what's more important to games, the gpu or the cpu? I'll give you a hint, if you had powerful core2duo and were using a motherboard's integrated graphics chipset and put that up against a less powerful cpu and a 7900gtx, which do you think would win in terms of graphics? The computer with the 7900gtx obviously... The cpu does have an affect, but not as big a one as some people seem to think.


This is console gaming, not computer.

Games = graphics/physics/enviroments/animation/artificialIntelligence/gameplay.

Cells capability is greater then Xenons.



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Taken from beyond3d:
In Lost Planet, each character is 10-20K polys. A VS robot is 30-40K polys. A background is about 500K. With shadows and other hidden rendering cost, it's about 3 million polys per frame.

Different platforms require different care, would not be surprised if ppl working on 360 and suddenly dropping their datasets onto RSX would not observe good numbers (and viceversa)
Now..I can't see how RSX, if used in the right way, should be so limited at vertex processing: in HS we easily render 2-2.5 MTriangles per frame at 30 fps without being VS limited and without making any use of CELL to speed up vertex shading and I know for sure that being more clever we could even go faster..(just using the GPU)
The numbers quoted about HS are slighty wrong..cause a few days a go I realized there's a bug in the code that computes the triangle count: in some cases it's more close to 3M triangles per frame mark than 2M.

Regarding cpu, yes its totally different arguments. The 360's is a very standard setup, a bunch of cores that can all see main memory. The advantage to this is that lots of thread coded written over the years can be ported to it easily. For example, Valve (the Half Life guys) are writing an entirely threaded engine for the PC. When it's done, porting it to the 360 will be easy. How about porting it to the PS3? Nope, won't work, it's a totally different setup. The PS3's main core is basically the same, but its spu's can't see main memory. Each one has 256k that it can work with, so you need to rewrite your code to pack things into 256k chunks, feed it to the spu's to process it, then copy it all back to main memory. In other words, you've gotta rewrite your code.

Now before I get jumped on here let me briefly mention the downsides. The 360's cpu setup is painfully easy to code for. But, they really aren't all that fast. Worse yet, all three cores use the same memory controller so the three cores are not three times the power of the one core on the PS3 due to some overhead. The PS3's spu's on the other hand are monstrously fast. You need to setup your data correctly to work with them, but once thats done then yes, the 360's cpu setup is crap compared to fully working spu's. I say fully working because most current games out there barely even touch on them, it will take time to re-write everything. I haven't done spu coding....yet. I will be though in 2007 which will be pretty cool.

RSX
5 shader ALU operations per pipeline per cycle (2 vector4 and 2 scalar (dual/co-issue) and fog ALU)
27 FLOPS per pipeline per cycle
68 billion shader operations per second theoretical maximum ( ((5 ALU x 24 pixel pipelines) + (2 ALU x 8 vetrex pipelines)) x 500 MHz )
364 GFLOPS ( ((27 FLOPS x 24 pixel pipelines) + (10 FLOPS x 8 vertex pipelines)) x 500 MHz )
24 filtered and 32 unfiltered texture samples per clock

Xenos
2 shader ALU operations per pipeline per cycle (1 vector4 and 1 scalar, co-issued)
10 FLOPS per pipeline per cycle
48 billion shader operations per second theoretical maximum (2 ALU x 48 shader pipelines x 500 MHz)
240 GFLOPS (10 FLOPS x 48 shader pipelines x 500 MHz)
16 filtered and 16 unfiltered texture samples per clock



Every 5 seconds on earth one child dies from hunger...

2009.04.30 - PS3 will OUTSELL x360 atleast by the middle of 2010. Japan+Europe > NA.


Gran Turismo 3 - 1,06 mln. in 3 weeks with around 4 mln. PS2 on the launch.
Gran Turismo 4 - 1,16 mln. with 18 mln. PS2 on the launch.

Final Fantasy X - around 2 mln. with 5 mln. PS2 on the launch.
Final Fantasy X-2 - 2.4 mln. with 12 mln. PS2 on the launch.

 

1.8 mln. PS3 today(2008.01.17) in Japan. Now(2009.04.30) 3.16 mln. PS3 were sold in Japan.
PS3 will reach 4 mln. in Japan by the end of 2009 with average weekly sales 25k.

PS3 may reach 5 mln. in Japan by the end of 2009 with average weekly sales 50k.
PS2 2001 vs PS3 2008 sales numbers =) + New games released in Japan by 2009 that passed 100k so far

this is rather pointless.. we know the RSX isnt the Xenos in overall strength. If anyone who has half a brain knows that the processor takes a major role in the graphics section. IF the processor bottlenecks before the video card can use its full potential then the graphics card. I dont know how many times my friends have had a lessor video card top a highend one because their processors were stronger (QX6700 + X1950xtx beat a 4800 + 8800GTS)



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BUT THE PS3 CAN DO REAL TIME RAY-TRACING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



My Top 5:

Shadow of the Colossus, Metal Gear Solid 3, Shenmue, Skies of Arcadia, Chrono Trigger

My 2 nex-gen systems: PS3 and Wii

Prediction Aug '08: We see the PSP2 released fall '09. Graphically, it's basically the same as the current system. UMD drive ditched and replaced by 4-8gb on board flash memory. Other upgrades: 2nd analog nub, touchscreen, blutooth, motion sensor. Design: Flip-style or slider. Size: Think Iphone. Cost: $199. Will be profitable on day 1.

Alas, where's Washimul when you need him?



My Top 5:

Shadow of the Colossus, Metal Gear Solid 3, Shenmue, Skies of Arcadia, Chrono Trigger

My 2 nex-gen systems: PS3 and Wii

Prediction Aug '08: We see the PSP2 released fall '09. Graphically, it's basically the same as the current system. UMD drive ditched and replaced by 4-8gb on board flash memory. Other upgrades: 2nd analog nub, touchscreen, blutooth, motion sensor. Design: Flip-style or slider. Size: Think Iphone. Cost: $199. Will be profitable on day 1.

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The RSX specs are still speculation. I haven't seen an official redress of the RSX specs. Second of all this comparison is filled with some inane comparisons. Take for instance deductions for the RSx "reading" from the XDR when most of the time the rsx will most likely be "writing to the XDR. Or they clock the triangle setup rate at 250 when it is more around 333 million (which doesn't matter much because of the cells ability). Theorized fram buffer limitations (which are as valid as the claims of those who said the PS3 had no scalar.)

 These pretty much look like guesses extrapolated from wikipedia data and a guess on the actual GPU and what it can do.... it is still unown what the RSX actually is.

 Even as such the RSX still seems like a mean contender without it being unified (what does that say?) and even as such the majority of the weight can be cooked up for the SPE's to process. With the cells SIMD and parallelism capabilities it is well adept to pick up slack for whatever is left over by the RSX.  What should be a slap in the face but note really pointed out is that the texture memory of the 360 is shared with the CPU while the worst they come up with for the PS3 is that it shares it's bandwidth for the frame buffer. The CPU of the 360 has to access its memory through the GPU’s memory controller and they share the same bus to the GDDR3 memory. If you look at it that way, memexport and the edram were not additional bonuses.... they are needed.

But thats just sticking to overall system points. You see the person on this forum is trying to do a beating of the chest by saying " these specs are higher, therefore the system must be better". If you step back and look at the big picture each gpu is a compliment to the system. Because of this they actually have different strengths and provide a huge boon for multiplatform developers. Take for instance the multiple core setup for the 360.... the cores do not talk directly to each other where as in the PS3 they do.  The PS3 takes what the PS2 was great at and amplified it. This causes great distress to programmers who are normally familiar with one frame of thinking or one type of archetecture.

 The systems are different and have noticible gaps in their powers. Multiplatform titles are going to be next to useless as a comparison because either one system is going to get more time or upon simultanious release it seems as if one system was shortchanged. Onm splinter cell the characters meshes were sticking together..... and I assure you that has nothing to do with power. Or how oblivion looks and performs better on the PS3 , most likely due to the additional attention it got. Or how the visuals look slightly better on the PS3 for virtua tennes (two different dev studios worked on the port) Am2 has had experience with the PS3's archetecture which lent to better results. There are many multiplatform games in which features are better in this one or that one but the truth is  exclusives are going tobe the shinning points of each systems. Already on the latest of techniques (such as streaming textures and streaming geometry the PS3 has the advantage because of blu ray. The 360 allows for greater cross-platform acheivability and is somewhat faster to make progress with.

This could go on till the cows come home... argueing specs is useless the real proof will show when the exclusives are released. 



Games make me happy! PSN ID: Staticneuron Gamertag: Staticneuron Wii Code: Static Wii - 3055 0871 5802 1723

CrazzyMan said:

Taken from beyond3d:
In Lost Planet, each character is 10-20K polys. A VS robot is 30-40K polys. A background is about 500K. With shadows and other hidden rendering cost, it's about 3 million polys per frame.

Different platforms require different care, would not be surprised if ppl working on 360 and suddenly dropping their datasets onto RSX would not observe good numbers (and viceversa)
Now..I can't see how RSX, if used in the right way, should be so limited at vertex processing: in HS we easily render 2-2.5 MTriangles per frame at 30 fps without being VS limited and without making any use of CELL to speed up vertex shading and I know for sure that being more clever we could even go faster..(just using the GPU)
The numbers quoted about HS are slighty wrong..cause a few days a go I realized there's a bug in the code that computes the triangle count: in some cases it's more close to 3M triangles per frame mark than 2M.

Regarding cpu, yes its totally different arguments. The 360's is a very standard setup, a bunch of cores that can all see main memory. The advantage to this is that lots of thread coded written over the years can be ported to it easily. For example, Valve (the Half Life guys) are writing an entirely threaded engine for the PC. When it's done, porting it to the 360 will be easy. How about porting it to the PS3? Nope, won't work, it's a totally different setup. The PS3's main core is basically the same, but its spu's can't see main memory. Each one has 256k that it can work with, so you need to rewrite your code to pack things into 256k chunks, feed it to the spu's to process it, then copy it all back to main memory. In other words, you've gotta rewrite your code.

Now before I get jumped on here let me briefly mention the downsides. The 360's cpu setup is painfully easy to code for. But, they really aren't all that fast. Worse yet, all three cores use the same memory controller so the three cores are not three times the power of the one core on the PS3 due to some overhead. The PS3's spu's on the other hand are monstrously fast. You need to setup your data correctly to work with them, but once thats done then yes, the 360's cpu setup is crap compared to fully working spu's. I say fully working because most current games out there barely even touch on them, it will take time to re-write everything. I haven't done spu coding....yet. I will be though in 2007 which will be pretty cool.

RSX
5 shader ALU operations per pipeline per cycle (2 vector4 and 2 scalar (dual/co-issue) and fog ALU)
27 FLOPS per pipeline per cycle
68 billion shader operations per second theoretical maximum ( ((5 ALU x 24 pixel pipelines) + (2 ALU x 8 vetrex pipelines)) x 500 MHz )
364 GFLOPS ( ((27 FLOPS x 24 pixel pipelines) + (10 FLOPS x 8 vertex pipelines)) x 500 MHz )
24 filtered and 32 unfiltered texture samples per clock

Xenos
2 shader ALU operations per pipeline per cycle (1 vector4 and 1 scalar, co-issued)
10 FLOPS per pipeline per cycle
48 billion shader operations per second theoretical maximum (2 ALU x 48 shader pipelines x 500 MHz)
240 GFLOPS (10 FLOPS x 48 shader pipelines x 500 MHz)
16 filtered and 16 unfiltered texture samples per clock


Truth be told...

I dont think the 360 will get much further than GoW.....

Graphic capabilities you have to throw in other factors too not just GPU vs. GPU...

It would have to be

GPU.VS.GPU + CPU.VS.CPU + DISKSPACE.VS.DISKSPACE...

The CPU does play a role in graphics but not that much but still who wants graphics with dumb AI and Physics...

The Diskspace because you could use more uncompressed data.. For smooooooooth textures and such...

Im no computer genius but can someone tell me if im right?



Legend11 said:

I often hear from PS3 "fans" the claim that the PS3 has better graphics than the 360 but it's just that the games haven't been released yet that show it... Well to clear a few things up and get some discussion going here's the stats to compare the two systems.  I'm wondering if maybe the high cost of adding blu-ray and problems in the development of the PS3 might have actually lead to a machine that might be crippled.

http://forum.teamxbox.com/showpost.php?p=9235572&postcount=11


Nice source..



Legend11 said:

I often hear from PS3 "fans" the claim that the PS3 has better graphics than the 360 but it's just that the games haven't been released yet that show it... Well to clear a few things up and get some discussion going here's the stats to compare the two systems.  I'm wondering if maybe the high cost of adding blu-ray and problems in the development of the PS3 might have actually lead to a machine that might be crippled.

http://forum.teamxbox.com/showpost.php?p=9235572&postcount=11

GPU Transistor Count
PS3 - RSX transistor count: 300.2 million transistors
Xbox 360 - Xenos transistor count: 337 million (232 million parent die
+105 million EDRAM daughter die)

GPU clock
Xbox 360 - Xenos clocked at 500 Mhz
PS3 - RSX clocked at 500 MHz

GPU video memory
Xbox 360 - Xenos: 512 MB of 700 Mhz GDDR3 VRAM on a 128-bit bus
Xbox 360 - Xenos: 10 MB daughter Embedded DRAM as framebuffer (32GB/s
bus, multiplied by 8 thanks to multisampling unpacking for an
effective bandwidth of 256 MB/s, the internal eDRAM bandwidth)
PS3 - RSX: 256 MB GDDR3 VRAM clocked at 650 Mhz on a 128-bit bus
PS3 - RSX: 256 MB of Rambus XDR DRAM via Cell (with latency penalty)

Triangle Setup
Xbox 360 - 500 Million Triangles/sec
PS3 - 250 Million Triangles/sec

Vertex Shader Processing
Xbox 360 - 6.0 Billion Vertices/sec (using all 48 Unified Pipelines)
Xbox 360 - 2.0 Billion Vertices/sec (using only 16 of the 48 Unified
Pipelines)
Xbox 360 - 1.5 Billion Vertices/sec (using only 12 of the 48 Unified
Pipelines)
Xbox 360 - 1.0 Billion Vertices/sec (using only 8 of the 48 Unified
Pipelines)
PS3 - 1.1 Billion Vertices/sec (if all 8 Vertex Pipelines remain)
PS3 - 0.825 Billion Vertices/sec (if downgraded to 6 Vertex Pipelines)

Filtered Texture Fetch
Xbox 360 - 8.0 Billion Texels/sec
PS3 - 13.2 Billion Texels/sec (if all 24 Pixel Pipelines remain)
PS3 - 11.0 Billion Texels/sec (if downgraded to 20 Pixel Pipelines)

Vertex Texture Fetch
Xbox 360 - 8.0 Billion Texels/sec
PS3 - 4.4 Billion Texels/sec (if all 8 Vertex Pipelines remain)
PS3 - 3.3 Billion Texels/sec (if downgraded to 6 Vertex Pipelines)

Pixel Shader Processing with 16 Filtered Texels Per Cycle (Pixel ALU x
Clock)
Xbox 360 - 24.0 Billion Pixels/sec (using all 48 Unified Pipelines)
Xbox 360 - 20.0 Billion Pixels/sec (using 40 of the 48 Unified
Pipelines)
Xbox 360 - 18.0 Billion Pixels/sec (using 36 of the 48 Unified
Pipelines)
Xbox 360 - 16.0 Billion Pixels/sec (using 32 of the 48 Unified
Pipelines)
PS3 - 17.6 Billion Pixels/sec (if all 24 Pixel Pipelines remain)
PS3 - 13.2 Billion Pixels/sec (if downgraded to 20 Pixel Pipelines)

Pixel Shader Processing without Textures (Pixel ALU x Clock)
Xbox 360 - 24.0 Billion Pixels/sec (using all 48 Unified Pipelines)
Xbox 360 - 20.0 Billion Pixels/sec (using 40 of the 48 Unified
Pipelines)
Xbox 360 - 18.0 Billion Pixels/sec (using 36 of the 48 Unified
Pipelines)
Xbox 360 - 16.0 Billion Pixels/sec (using 32 of the 48 Unified
Pipelines)
PS3 - 26.4 Billion Pixels/sec (if all 24 Pixel Pipelines remain)
PS3 - 22.0 Billion Pixels/sec (if downgraded to 20 Pixel Pipelines)

Multisampled Fill Rate
Xbox 360 - 16.0 Billion Samples/sec (8 ROPS x 4 Samples x 500MHz)
PS3 - 8.0 Billion Samples/sec (8 ROPS x 2 Samples x 500MHz)

Pixel Fill Rate with 4x Multisampled Anti-Aliasing
Xbox 360 - 4.0 Billion Pixels/sec (8 ROPS x 4 Samples x 500MHz / 4)
PS3 - 2.0 Billion Pixels/sec (8 ROPS x 2 Samples x 500MHz / 4)

Pixel Fill Rate without Anti-Aliasing
Xbox 360 - 4.0 Billion Pixels/sec (8 ROPS x 500MHz)
PS3 - 4.0 Billion Pixels/sec (8 ROPS x 500MHz)

Frame Buffer Bandwidth
Xbox 360 - 256.0 GB/sec (dedicated for frame buffer rendering)
PS3 - 22.4 GB/sec (shared with other graphics data: textures and
vertices)
PS3 - 12.4 GB/sec (with 10.0 GB/sec subtracted for textures and
vertices)
PS3 - 10.0 GB/sec (with 12.4 GB/sec subtracted for textures and
vertices)

Texture/Vertex Memory Bandwidth
Xbox 360 - 22.4 GB/sec (shared with CPU)
Xbox 360 - 14.4 GB/sec (with 8.0 GB/sec subtracted for CPU)
Xbox 360 - 12.4 GB/sec (with 10.0 GB/sec subtracted for CPU)
PS3 - 22.4 GB/sec (shared with frame buffer)
PS3 - 12.4 GB/sec (with 10.0 GB/sec subtracted for frame buffer)
PS3 - 10.0 GB/sec (with 12.4 GB/sec subtracted for frame buffer)
PS3 - additional 20.0 GB/sec when reading from XDR memory (with
latency penalty)

Shader Model
Xbox 360 - Shader Model 3.0+ / Unified Shader Architecture
PS3 - Shader Model 3.0 / Discrete Shader Architecture


I suppose you know most of this data is fake dont you ?

The RSX has 550mhz not 500Mhz ,the polygon count cant be determined for any of the architechtures ,etc etc ...

 

One of the most funny is the comparision of the shader capabilities ...basically you always calculate the 48 pipelines of the Xenos at full speed against the 24 pipelines of the RSX for shader and the 8 pipelines for vertex operations putting those apart to compare them face to face with the Xenos ....that way you maximize the difference and make the Xenos look better  .But in truth you must do vertex and shader operations at the same time ,and the correct comparision is 48x4 operations per cycle X500 megahertzs for the Xenos against 32x5.7 operations per cycle x550 megahertzs for the RSX .The results are comparable ,the flexibility of the unified shaders could give the X360 some advantage (4% )under determinate and optimate conditions ,but in raw numbers the RSX is a 4% more capable of this kind of calculations .Used at best the Xenos couldnt do the 100 Billion SOPS the RSX could theorically achieve ,but 96 at best .

 Just look at your source .Pathetic attempt boy .



how about the fact that nvidia hasnt released final RSX specs...



PC gaming is better than console gaming. Always.     We are Anonymous, We are Legion    Kick-ass interview   Great Flash Series Here    Anime Ratings     Make and Play Please
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