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Forums - Gaming - Is next gen console's extra RAM going to primarily used to upgrade graphics?

fillet on 14 April 2013
S.T.A.G.E. said:
fillet said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
Yes, the ram will affect the way things are delegated in games and can affect art direction:


1) Graphics downgraded tremendously - Nonsense, without being specific, this means nothing.
2) Lighting downgraded - Nonsense.
3) Lack of draw distance - Possibly.
4) More expansive worlds - Yes
5) More areas load slower instead of allowing for seamless progression. -Yes
6) Polygons held back - Nonsense
7) Holds back tech that allows more emotion to be shown - Possibly nonsese...to be decided.

The list goes on and on.
Last gen is last gen techwise. Next gen is supposed to allow for newer experiences not hold them back. Devs will not compromise that because Nintendo cannot create tech that allows devs to realize their ambitions. Games like Watch Dog's probably could've been bigger if it was all last gen but Ubisoft played it smart and knew they will need the money from the current gen gamers. The game is more restricted than a next gen game would be.


Bolded. :)


Watch the quantic dream video for the emotion factor upgrades for next gen games at the PS4 unveiling. 


I'll do that :) Thanks for the tip.



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fillet on 14 April 2013
Machiavellian said:
VGKing said:
fillet said:
VGKing said:
RolStoppable said:
Six years ago people used to say on this very website that the Wii won't be able to handle the progress in AI and scope that will be enabled by the PS3's hardware. Now, due to the benefit of hindsight, we know that AI barely advanced in the last years and most games got actually more linear, with the hardware power only being used to suggest that there are large areas beyond the linear paths. All the processing power was mainly used for prettier pictures and it shouldn't be expected that this will change in the eighth generation. There might be a few exceptions, but they will be just that.

Now this doesn't mean that the Wii U will get the same content, but it would be possible, if developers and publishers want to do it.

The transition from SD to HD was hard on every developer. Some devs even struggle to create better graphics, so how can they create better AI and better physics? It really just depends on the type of game. Super Mario games don't need better graphics, AI or physics to be fun right? The same can be said for Call of Duty.

So it doesn't really matter whether or not AI improves significantly. As a Nintendo gamer, you of all people should know that.

The main reason why the PS3 and its CELL processor didnt advance AI to jizz-levels is because most games went multi-platfrom. PS3 no longer had the market to itself and it devs had to make sure to build games that could easily be ported across different platforms. This won't be a problem with the 8th gen of consoles. PS4 doesn't need to dominate the market since its specs are so similar to the next Xbox and typical PCs.

You'll believe anything, there's literally no evidence to support this except 5-7 year old marketing bullshit. You're better than that!

It's been accepted for a while now that the CELL can't brush your teeth, cook a sunday dinner, or clean the windows.

No, I've seen it myself with PS3 exclusives. 


Maybe its me but I have every PS3 exclusive and I have not seen AI, Animation or physics better with PS3 exclusives.  Killzone Ai is not better than Halo or for that matter any FPS game out on the market.  I cannot find a game where Physics is better on any PS3 exclusive.  Graphical features seem favor PS3 exclusives but thats pretty much it.

I'd disagree with this, PS3 exclusives have some seriously special particle effects for starters that you never see on the Xbox 360, I'm sure some of those would be physics based, I can't really say the AI is any better but animation, certainly at times.

That still doesn't make VGKing's claims valid though and it takes extreme work and talented developers lots of money to produce such quality.



S.T.A.G.E. on 14 April 2013
fillet said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
fillet said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
Yes, the ram will affect the way things are delegated in games and can affect art direction:


1) Graphics downgraded tremendously - Nonsense, without being specific, this means nothing.
2) Lighting downgraded - Nonsense.
3) Lack of draw distance - Possibly.
4) More expansive worlds - Yes
5) More areas load slower instead of allowing for seamless progression. -Yes
6) Polygons held back - Nonsense
7) Holds back tech that allows more emotion to be shown - Possibly nonsese...to be decided.

The list goes on and on.
Last gen is last gen techwise. Next gen is supposed to allow for newer experiences not hold them back. Devs will not compromise that because Nintendo cannot create tech that allows devs to realize their ambitions. Games like Watch Dog's probably could've been bigger if it was all last gen but Ubisoft played it smart and knew they will need the money from the current gen gamers. The game is more restricted than a next gen game would be.


Bolded. :)


Watch the quantic dream video for the emotion factor upgrades for next gen games at the PS4 unveiling. 


I'll do that :) Thanks for the tip.


While you're doing that watch the Knack unveling and also showing how now with newer tech more characters and other objects can be in one area at once.



fillet on 14 April 2013

Will do, cheers

Don't mind being shown I'm wrong ;) honestly :)



Machiavellian on 14 April 2013
fillet said:
Machiavellian said:
VGKing said:
fillet said:
VGKing said:
RolStoppable said:
Six years ago people used to say on this very website that the Wii won't be able to handle the progress in AI and scope that will be enabled by the PS3's hardware. Now, due to the benefit of hindsight, we know that AI barely advanced in the last years and most games got actually more linear, with the hardware power only being used to suggest that there are large areas beyond the linear paths. All the processing power was mainly used for prettier pictures and it shouldn't be expected that this will change in the eighth generation. There might be a few exceptions, but they will be just that.

Now this doesn't mean that the Wii U will get the same content, but it would be possible, if developers and publishers want to do it.

The transition from SD to HD was hard on every developer. Some devs even struggle to create better graphics, so how can they create better AI and better physics? It really just depends on the type of game. Super Mario games don't need better graphics, AI or physics to be fun right? The same can be said for Call of Duty.

So it doesn't really matter whether or not AI improves significantly. As a Nintendo gamer, you of all people should know that.

The main reason why the PS3 and its CELL processor didnt advance AI to jizz-levels is because most games went multi-platfrom. PS3 no longer had the market to itself and it devs had to make sure to build games that could easily be ported across different platforms. This won't be a problem with the 8th gen of consoles. PS4 doesn't need to dominate the market since its specs are so similar to the next Xbox and typical PCs.

You'll believe anything, there's literally no evidence to support this except 5-7 year old marketing bullshit. You're better than that!

It's been accepted for a while now that the CELL can't brush your teeth, cook a sunday dinner, or clean the windows.

No, I've seen it myself with PS3 exclusives. 


Maybe its me but I have every PS3 exclusive and I have not seen AI, Animation or physics better with PS3 exclusives.  Killzone Ai is not better than Halo or for that matter any FPS game out on the market.  I cannot find a game where Physics is better on any PS3 exclusive.  Graphical features seem favor PS3 exclusives but thats pretty much it.

I'd disagree with this, PS3 exclusives have some seriously special particle effects for starters that you never see on the Xbox 360, I'm sure some of those would be physics based, I can't really say the AI is any better but animation, certainly at times.

That still doesn't make VGKing's claims valid though and it takes extreme work and talented developers lots of money to produce such quality.

I do not want to go on the name game road but this is something I have not seen.  I cannot name a PS3 exclusive that has particles that I have not seen another studio be able to replicated and I have not seen animation that a PS3 exclusive has done that wasnt replicated by another studio either first or 3rd on the 360.

VGKing makes it sound like the 360 is holding back the PS3 development and I am saying thats not the case.  Sony just have some really tallented studios which is where you see the seperation more than the capabilities of both consoles.  Oh and money helps alot.  Money helps as more tech within a game take time and resources probably more than anything else.



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fillet on 14 April 2013
Machiavellian said:
fillet said:
Machiavellian said:
VGKing said:
fillet said:
VGKing said:
RolStoppable said:
Six years ago people used to say on this very website that the Wii won't be able to handle the progress in AI and scope that will be enabled by the PS3's hardware. Now, due to the benefit of hindsight, we know that AI barely advanced in the last years and most games got actually more linear, with the hardware power only being used to suggest that there are large areas beyond the linear paths. All the processing power was mainly used for prettier pictures and it shouldn't be expected that this will change in the eighth generation. There might be a few exceptions, but they will be just that.

Now this doesn't mean that the Wii U will get the same content, but it would be possible, if developers and publishers want to do it.

The transition from SD to HD was hard on every developer. Some devs even struggle to create better graphics, so how can they create better AI and better physics? It really just depends on the type of game. Super Mario games don't need better graphics, AI or physics to be fun right? The same can be said for Call of Duty.

So it doesn't really matter whether or not AI improves significantly. As a Nintendo gamer, you of all people should know that.

The main reason why the PS3 and its CELL processor didnt advance AI to jizz-levels is because most games went multi-platfrom. PS3 no longer had the market to itself and it devs had to make sure to build games that could easily be ported across different platforms. This won't be a problem with the 8th gen of consoles. PS4 doesn't need to dominate the market since its specs are so similar to the next Xbox and typical PCs.

You'll believe anything, there's literally no evidence to support this except 5-7 year old marketing bullshit. You're better than that!

It's been accepted for a while now that the CELL can't brush your teeth, cook a sunday dinner, or clean the windows.

No, I've seen it myself with PS3 exclusives. 


Maybe its me but I have every PS3 exclusive and I have not seen AI, Animation or physics better with PS3 exclusives.  Killzone Ai is not better than Halo or for that matter any FPS game out on the market.  I cannot find a game where Physics is better on any PS3 exclusive.  Graphical features seem favor PS3 exclusives but thats pretty much it.

I'd disagree with this, PS3 exclusives have some seriously special particle effects for starters that you never see on the Xbox 360, I'm sure some of those would be physics based, I can't really say the AI is any better but animation, certainly at times.

That still doesn't make VGKing's claims valid though and it takes extreme work and talented developers lots of money to produce such quality.

I do not want to go on the name game road but this is something I have not seen.  I cannot name a PS3 exclusive that has particles that I have not seen another studio be able to replicated and I have not seen animation that a PS3 exclusive has done that wasnt replicated by another studio either first or 3rd on the 360.

VGKing makes it sound like the 360 is holding back the PS3 development and I am saying thats not the case.  Sony just have some really tallented studios which is where you see the seperation more than the capabilities of both consoles.  Oh and money helps alot.  Money helps as more tech within a game take time and resources probably more than anything else.

Couldn't agree more

I'm an Xbox 360 fan at heart so I generally go there for most games including multiplats, but I'm not really biased (own pretty much all consoles).

That said, I can't possibly deny that PS3 exclusives have a certain something that Xbox 360 games don't have, I don't attribute that to the CELL though. It's more as you say, to do with developer talent and willingness to invest resources to make it happen.

I'm sure those games could be done on the Xbox 360 if that willingness/investment/talent was there, but the reality is that it isn't, and I can't possibly prove such a theory, so in fairness all one can say is that PS3 exclusives have that something and Xbox 360 ones don't (with possible exception of Halo 4, which I feel does match some PS3 top exclusives, but that's only 1 game).

I would say the particle effects in Killzone 2/3 are ones not seen on the Xbox 360 as well as some of the animation. I would also say a similar thing for heavy rain lighting effects. Though I dispute whether it's truely that impressive as it uses a somewhat sneaky trick of using a grain filter to hide the low resolution imo (could be wrong there, it just looks awful on my projector when set to sharp and the effect instead appears as a meshing of the image).

Uncharted also, for the animation, not seen on the Xbox 360 and the general overall attention to detail, the sand in Uncharted 3...

 

End of the day though, these games all use serious tricks by talented developers to pull this off, if you look closely, you can see what was sacrificed in each scene to make it possible, God Of War is an obvious one on that front, characters look amazing, scenery looks utter shite to someone with technical knowledge, but to the average gamer they don't notice it because they don't realize the tricks that are used. For example rendering flat backgrounds instead of objects in the background etc.

 

Gone seriously off topic here, basically you're right. I'm really not sure what VGKing is on about though lol.



richardhutnik on 14 April 2013
fillet said:
Machiavellian said:
fillet said:
Machiavellian said:
VGKing said:
fillet said:
VGKing said:
RolStoppable said:
Six years ago people used to say on this very website that the Wii won't be able to handle the progress in AI and scope that will be enabled by the PS3's hardware. Now, due to the benefit of hindsight, we know that AI barely advanced in the last years and most games got actually more linear, with the hardware power only being used to suggest that there are large areas beyond the linear paths. All the processing power was mainly used for prettier pictures and it shouldn't be expected that this will change in the eighth generation. There might be a few exceptions, but they will be just that.

Now this doesn't mean that the Wii U will get the same content, but it would be possible, if developers and publishers want to do it.

The transition from SD to HD was hard on every developer. Some devs even struggle to create better graphics, so how can they create better AI and better physics? It really just depends on the type of game. Super Mario games don't need better graphics, AI or physics to be fun right? The same can be said for Call of Duty.

So it doesn't really matter whether or not AI improves significantly. As a Nintendo gamer, you of all people should know that.

The main reason why the PS3 and its CELL processor didnt advance AI to jizz-levels is because most games went multi-platfrom. PS3 no longer had the market to itself and it devs had to make sure to build games that could easily be ported across different platforms. This won't be a problem with the 8th gen of consoles. PS4 doesn't need to dominate the market since its specs are so similar to the next Xbox and typical PCs.

You'll believe anything, there's literally no evidence to support this except 5-7 year old marketing bullshit. You're better than that!

It's been accepted for a while now that the CELL can't brush your teeth, cook a sunday dinner, or clean the windows.

No, I've seen it myself with PS3 exclusives. 


Maybe its me but I have every PS3 exclusive and I have not seen AI, Animation or physics better with PS3 exclusives.  Killzone Ai is not better than Halo or for that matter any FPS game out on the market.  I cannot find a game where Physics is better on any PS3 exclusive.  Graphical features seem favor PS3 exclusives but thats pretty much it.

I'd disagree with this, PS3 exclusives have some seriously special particle effects for starters that you never see on the Xbox 360, I'm sure some of those would be physics based, I can't really say the AI is any better but animation, certainly at times.

That still doesn't make VGKing's claims valid though and it takes extreme work and talented developers lots of money to produce such quality.

I do not want to go on the name game road but this is something I have not seen.  I cannot name a PS3 exclusive that has particles that I have not seen another studio be able to replicated and I have not seen animation that a PS3 exclusive has done that wasnt replicated by another studio either first or 3rd on the 360.

VGKing makes it sound like the 360 is holding back the PS3 development and I am saying thats not the case.  Sony just have some really tallented studios which is where you see the seperation more than the capabilities of both consoles.  Oh and money helps alot.  Money helps as more tech within a game take time and resources probably more than anything else.

Couldn't agree more

I'm an Xbox 360 fan at heart so I generally go there for most games including multiplats, but I'm not really biased (own pretty much all consoles).

That said, I can't possibly deny that PS3 exclusives have a certain something that Xbox 360 games don't have, I don't attribute that to the CELL though. It's more as you say, to do with developer talent and willingness to invest resources to make it happen.

I'm sure those games could be done on the Xbox 360 if that willingness/investment/talent was there, but the reality is that it isn't, and I can't possibly prove such a theory, so in fairness all one can say is that PS3 exclusives have that something and Xbox 360 ones don't (with possible exception of Halo 4, which I feel does match some PS3 top exclusives, but that's only 1 game).

I would say the particle effects in Killzone 2/3 are ones not seen on the Xbox 360 as well as some of the animation. I would also say a similar thing for heavy rain lighting effects. Though I dispute whether it's truely that impressive as it uses a somewhat sneaky trick of using a grain filter to hide the low resolution imo (could be wrong there, it just looks awful on my projector when set to sharp and the effect instead appears as a meshing of the image).

Uncharted also, for the animation, not seen on the Xbox 360 and the general overall attention to detail, the sand in Uncharted 3...

 

End of the day though, these games all use serious tricks by talented developers to pull this off, if you look closely, you can see what was sacrificed in each scene to make it possible, God Of War is an obvious one on that front, characters look amazing, scenery looks utter shite to someone with technical knowledge, but to the average gamer they don't notice it because they don't realize the tricks that are used. For example rendering flat backgrounds instead of objects in the background etc.

 

Gone seriously off topic here, basically you're right. I'm really not sure what VGKing is on about though lol.

Videogames are all about tricks you play to make people see things amazing.  There may not be a need for anything but flat backgrounds, depending on the situation.  And art style can mask a LOT.



platformmaster918 on 14 April 2013
Machiavellian said:
One thing I can see more ram helping is creating a ram disk. Since the expected behavior for Sony and MS next gen console is to always be on. Developers can keep the state of the games in memory and it only takes secs for you to get back to your place in your game. Depending on how much memory is reserved for this state, you could have a few games in this state and easily move between one or the other with little fuss.

I believe Sony and MS will do this with whatever other functions they support like true multi tasking. Switching between open apps like Nextflix, Hulu and other streamers

Maybe what separate Sony and MS is how much will be reserved for other functions and how much will be available for games.

So basically exactly what Sony said it would do in their press conference?  I believe their exact words were "the play session is stored in RAM" when they were talking about instantaneously turning it back on.




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fillet on 14 April 2013
richardhutnik said:
fillet said:
Machiavellian said:
fillet said:
Machiavellian said:
VGKing said:
fillet said:
VGKing said:
RolStoppable said:
Six years ago people used to say on this very website that the Wii won't be able to handle the progress in AI and scope that will be enabled by the PS3's hardware. Now, due to the benefit of hindsight, we know that AI barely advanced in the last years and most games got actually more linear, with the hardware power only being used to suggest that there are large areas beyond the linear paths. All the processing power was mainly used for prettier pictures and it shouldn't be expected that this will change in the eighth generation. There might be a few exceptions, but they will be just that.

Now this doesn't mean that the Wii U will get the same content, but it would be possible, if developers and publishers want to do it.

The transition from SD to HD was hard on every developer. Some devs even struggle to create better graphics, so how can they create better AI and better physics? It really just depends on the type of game. Super Mario games don't need better graphics, AI or physics to be fun right? The same can be said for Call of Duty.

So it doesn't really matter whether or not AI improves significantly. As a Nintendo gamer, you of all people should know that.

The main reason why the PS3 and its CELL processor didnt advance AI to jizz-levels is because most games went multi-platfrom. PS3 no longer had the market to itself and it devs had to make sure to build games that could easily be ported across different platforms. This won't be a problem with the 8th gen of consoles. PS4 doesn't need to dominate the market since its specs are so similar to the next Xbox and typical PCs.

You'll believe anything, there's literally no evidence to support this except 5-7 year old marketing bullshit. You're better than that!

It's been accepted for a while now that the CELL can't brush your teeth, cook a sunday dinner, or clean the windows.

No, I've seen it myself with PS3 exclusives. 


Maybe its me but I have every PS3 exclusive and I have not seen AI, Animation or physics better with PS3 exclusives.  Killzone Ai is not better than Halo or for that matter any FPS game out on the market.  I cannot find a game where Physics is better on any PS3 exclusive.  Graphical features seem favor PS3 exclusives but thats pretty much it.

I'd disagree with this, PS3 exclusives have some seriously special particle effects for starters that you never see on the Xbox 360, I'm sure some of those would be physics based, I can't really say the AI is any better but animation, certainly at times.

That still doesn't make VGKing's claims valid though and it takes extreme work and talented developers lots of money to produce such quality.

I do not want to go on the name game road but this is something I have not seen.  I cannot name a PS3 exclusive that has particles that I have not seen another studio be able to replicated and I have not seen animation that a PS3 exclusive has done that wasnt replicated by another studio either first or 3rd on the 360.

VGKing makes it sound like the 360 is holding back the PS3 development and I am saying thats not the case.  Sony just have some really tallented studios which is where you see the seperation more than the capabilities of both consoles.  Oh and money helps alot.  Money helps as more tech within a game take time and resources probably more than anything else.

Couldn't agree more

I'm an Xbox 360 fan at heart so I generally go there for most games including multiplats, but I'm not really biased (own pretty much all consoles).

That said, I can't possibly deny that PS3 exclusives have a certain something that Xbox 360 games don't have, I don't attribute that to the CELL though. It's more as you say, to do with developer talent and willingness to invest resources to make it happen.

I'm sure those games could be done on the Xbox 360 if that willingness/investment/talent was there, but the reality is that it isn't, and I can't possibly prove such a theory, so in fairness all one can say is that PS3 exclusives have that something and Xbox 360 ones don't (with possible exception of Halo 4, which I feel does match some PS3 top exclusives, but that's only 1 game).

I would say the particle effects in Killzone 2/3 are ones not seen on the Xbox 360 as well as some of the animation. I would also say a similar thing for heavy rain lighting effects. Though I dispute whether it's truely that impressive as it uses a somewhat sneaky trick of using a grain filter to hide the low resolution imo (could be wrong there, it just looks awful on my projector when set to sharp and the effect instead appears as a meshing of the image).

Uncharted also, for the animation, not seen on the Xbox 360 and the general overall attention to detail, the sand in Uncharted 3...

 

End of the day though, these games all use serious tricks by talented developers to pull this off, if you look closely, you can see what was sacrificed in each scene to make it possible, God Of War is an obvious one on that front, characters look amazing, scenery looks utter shite to someone with technical knowledge, but to the average gamer they don't notice it because they don't realize the tricks that are used. For example rendering flat backgrounds instead of objects in the background etc.

 

Gone seriously off topic here, basically you're right. I'm really not sure what VGKing is on about though lol.

Videogames are all about tricks you play to make people see things amazing.  There may not be a need for anything but flat backgrounds, depending on the situation.  And art style can mask a LOT.


Absolutely, I wasn't downplaying anything but just explaining how this stuff can be pulled off and where shortcuts can be taken to make use of what's available for what people do notice, the context of the person's post I replied to. :)



VGKing on 14 April 2013
Machiavellian said:
fillet said:
Machiavellian said:
VGKing said:
fillet said:
VGKing said:
RolStoppable said:
Six years ago people used to say on this very website that the Wii won't be able to handle the progress in AI and scope that will be enabled by the PS3's hardware. Now, due to the benefit of hindsight, we know that AI barely advanced in the last years and most games got actually more linear, with the hardware power only being used to suggest that there are large areas beyond the linear paths. All the processing power was mainly used for prettier pictures and it shouldn't be expected that this will change in the eighth generation. There might be a few exceptions, but they will be just that.

Now this doesn't mean that the Wii U will get the same content, but it would be possible, if developers and publishers want to do it.

The transition from SD to HD was hard on every developer. Some devs even struggle to create better graphics, so how can they create better AI and better physics? It really just depends on the type of game. Super Mario games don't need better graphics, AI or physics to be fun right? The same can be said for Call of Duty.

So it doesn't really matter whether or not AI improves significantly. As a Nintendo gamer, you of all people should know that.

The main reason why the PS3 and its CELL processor didnt advance AI to jizz-levels is because most games went multi-platfrom. PS3 no longer had the market to itself and it devs had to make sure to build games that could easily be ported across different platforms. This won't be a problem with the 8th gen of consoles. PS4 doesn't need to dominate the market since its specs are so similar to the next Xbox and typical PCs.

You'll believe anything, there's literally no evidence to support this except 5-7 year old marketing bullshit. You're better than that!

It's been accepted for a while now that the CELL can't brush your teeth, cook a sunday dinner, or clean the windows.

No, I've seen it myself with PS3 exclusives. 


Maybe its me but I have every PS3 exclusive and I have not seen AI, Animation or physics better with PS3 exclusives.  Killzone Ai is not better than Halo or for that matter any FPS game out on the market.  I cannot find a game where Physics is better on any PS3 exclusive.  Graphical features seem favor PS3 exclusives but thats pretty much it.

I'd disagree with this, PS3 exclusives have some seriously special particle effects for starters that you never see on the Xbox 360, I'm sure some of those would be physics based, I can't really say the AI is any better but animation, certainly at times.

That still doesn't make VGKing's claims valid though and it takes extreme work and talented developers lots of money to produce such quality.

I do not want to go on the name game road but this is something I have not seen.  I cannot name a PS3 exclusive that has particles that I have not seen another studio be able to replicated and I have not seen animation that a PS3 exclusive has done that wasnt replicated by another studio either first or 3rd on the 360.

VGKing makes it sound like the 360 is holding back the PS3 development and I am saying thats not the case.  Sony just have some really tallented studios which is where you see the seperation more than the capabilities of both consoles.  Oh and money helps alot.  Money helps as more tech within a game take time and resources probably more than anything else.

Both PS3 and 360 limit each other. Exclusives always push boundaries that a multiplatform game just will never be able to push.