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Forums - Sony Discussion - PCWatch: PS4 Technical Overview @ GDC 2013

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ethomaz said:

WereKitten said:

Uh? Where are you getting this magical duplication?

Graphics and compute in parallel means more granularity in sharing the CUs, be that because of the increased number of queues as shown by the VGLeaks diagram of a few weeks ago, or by something akin to hyperthreading in CUs- i.e. a hardware assisted context switching.

The overall global limit is still 1.8TFlops; these improvements will make sure it can be used with an efficiency closer to 100%, but not magically duplicate it.

Read here... the CUs can do both at the same time without lost performance... all the 1.8TFLOPS can be used to Graphcis and Compute at the same time... on PC you need to choose in use one or other in each CU... PS4 GPU has the ability to do both in each CU at the same time... that's seem duplicate magic for me.

Or I'm geting all wrong.

Yes, that's what I read. But an ALU is an ALU... there's no magic that will make it crunch double the instructions per cycle only because you tag one as graphic and the other as compute.

The way I read that is that, going back to the vgleak document about the increased number of queues, you'll be able to keep the CUs occupied with graphic and computing tasks in parallel, without any big scale mode switch, resulting in a greater efficiency.

A Flop is a Flop... if it were like you said, those CUs would just have double the maximum theoretical Flop throughput and it would not make any sense to mark them as 1.8Tflops. They would just be indicated as 3.6Tflops because that's how many operations per second they would be able to crunch in the best scenario.



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WereKitten said:

Yes, that's what I read. But an ALU is an ALU... there's no magic that will make it crunch double the instructions per cycle only because you tag one as graphic and the other as compute.

The way I read that is that, going back to the vgleak document about the increased number of queues, you'll be able to keep the CUs occupied with graphic and computing tasks in parallel, without any big scale mode switch, resulting in a greater efficiency.

A Flop is a Flop... if it were like you said, those CUs would just have double the maximum theoretical Flop throughput and it would not make any sense to mark them as 1.8Tflops. They would just be indicated as 3.6Tflops because that's how many operations per second they would be able to crunch in the best scenario.

Semms reasonable... and the parallel thing the PC can't do... what that's means?



I'm somewhat pleased with the direction Playstation 4 has taken. Let's take it by subjects:

1. X86-based CPU processing
That was a very logical choice. What a bad move - giving the Playstation 3 a PowerPC-based architecture, given the fact that everyone uses X86. Everyone everywhere likes this, because it makes programming exponentially easier. Plus - the X86 is better at DirectX and OpenGL shader calls, at the same clock-rate. It is way better at operating system procedures at any clockrate. Thus - allowing for a 1.6 ghz clockrate - half the PowerPC. Virtually no heat distribution.

2. Useless hardware
The blu-ray drive is useless. Doesn't visibly impact the video game. Plus - 8.4 GB for a DVD is enough for most games - probably 95% of games. The 8 GB of RAM is useless - it would take 6 minutes to load a game with that much data. 2 GB makes more sense - 1.5 minutes, and is enough for 95% of games. 8 X86-based CPUs are useless. There's no way to use 8 CPUs efficiently in in-game conditions. 2 would serve for 95% of games. Playstation 4 could easily cost $275.00 if those features were deleted.

We're in the big leagues now! 1.84 TFLOPS performance. That's a lot. Playstation 3 had at best 300 GFLOPS. A TFLOP supercomputer basically - meaning in 2000 - that could've been a super-computer. 2-3 billion transistors.

Plus Playstation 4 is intelligently designed. The x86 processing is one component. Another component, is the asynchronous move engines. That certainly helps to move data far more efficiently - while the game is running. Another - the 32 MB SRAM on the GPU, which allows for unbelievably massive geometry rendering, and free 2x AA at 1920 x 1080p, even at 60 fps.

Plus - there's likely a vector co-processor in the CPU design we're not aware of - another massive improvement. All said and done - 100% utilization of the available hardware in the best way - that's unheard of. It's main weaknesses are:

1. The Blu-Ray drive. Not necessary. Especially a BD-XL one. A 8.5 GB DVD is enough, and far cheaper then a regular Blu-Ray drive. Games would look identical.

2. 8 CPUs. Hard to utilize 8 separate CPUs! Takes expert programming. 95% of games will use at most 2, and it would make no visual difference.

3. 8 GB RAM - hard to load 8 GB of data. Would take 6 minutes. 95% of games will only use 2 GB, and it would make no visual difference.



Cyborg13B said:

You are looking at games built for PS3 and 360. Now that PS4 will be the base line you will see much different games. If XB3 indeed has 8 cores, 8GB of RAM, and a Blu-ray drive, you can bet every game will take advantage of those features. 

So far this looks like the best console Sony has ever developed. Hopefully it translates to amazing games, and fully rids us of game stopping instances (downloads, running additional programs, updates, web browsing , ect.). 



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cool stuff, but do you really see this being sold for less than 500€ if it comes with a big HDD?



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Yeah..The GDDR 5 thing is indeed unified. Since there was a post by one of the users on VGC that there is a different DDR 3 RAM for other system processes. LOL!



DieAppleDie said:
cool stuff, but do you really see this being sold for less than 500€ if it comes with a big HDD?

Yeah the price is what might make or break the PS4 early on.

Depends if they want to sell at a huge loss or not, hopefully not to PS3 levels.



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_crazy_man_ said:
DieAppleDie said:
cool stuff, but do you really see this being sold for less than 500€ if it comes with a big HDD?

Yeah the price is what might make or break the PS4 early on.

Depends if they want to sell at a huge loss or not, hopefully not to PS3 levels.

I remember rumours earlier back put it at around $430 or something for the base model. I think if sony prices it at $400 for the base model, it would be a great price. I don't see it dipping any lower unless they do the subscription thing like the xbox360 to lower the price upon purchase.



BloodyRain said:
_crazy_man_ said:
DieAppleDie said:
cool stuff, but do you really see this being sold for less than 500€ if it comes with a big HDD?

Yeah the price is what might make or break the PS4 early on.

Depends if they want to sell at a huge loss or not, hopefully not to PS3 levels.

I remember rumours earlier back put it at around $430 or something for the base model. I think if sony prices it at $400 for the base model, it would be a great price. I don't see it dipping any lower unless they do the subscription thing like the xbox360 to lower the price upon purchase.

Rumors are rumors.  But yes theat would be a small loss that would could easily be covered with controllers/1st Party game purchases.



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WereKitten said:

Graphics and compute in parallel means more granularity in sharing the CUs, be that because of the increased number of queues as shown by the VGLeaks diagram of a few weeks ago, or by something akin to hyperthreading in CUs- i.e. a hardware assisted context switching.

I agree, there is a little bit too much magic derived from this (google-translate-from-japanese?) preview. I'd assume hyperthreading within a CU would cause nightmares with data coherencies and frame rate timings. So I'd guess the PS4 is able to dynamically (re-)-allocate CUs for graphics or cpu-type stuff like physics. In simple terms if you have a lot of rubble flying around, you temporarily allocate more CUs to particle physics, if (or while you somehow make sure?) the remaining CUs can still hold a reasonable frame rate. Whether any developer actually goes that path is unlikely, though. Maybe in 2-3 years when developers really figured out the pros and cons of the system.